| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| PeterW |
Posted - 08/13/2005 : 15:07:18
Greetings . . . A couple hopefully quick questions from a relative newcomer with an 18 year history of lower back woes, now in the midst of a serious 5 month episode . . .
Currently reading and grappling with the Sarno concepts after reading Healing Back Pain and the Mindbody Prescription, plus Segel's 'Back Sense'. I've digested it pretty well intellectually, but still have some trouble at deeper levels, as the central theses conflict with so much conventional thinking, and even my own intuition in some cases. But not much else is working right now, so . . .
Acknowledging that no one else on this forum can actually 'diagnose' anyone else, has anyone whose low back ache/pain has since been 'fixed' by TMS/Sarno methods ever had a back so tight you could barely bend forward to touch your knees, let alone your toes? Constantly needing stretching and massage to get moving, yet are stiff as plywood again the next morning? Yet also find doing too much tightens everything up as well. And a spine that seems unable to handle lifting more than about 5 pounds at a time.
I understand everyone has their own patterns, just wondering if this is a relatively typical one.
Secondly, are there any TMS diagnosing docs closer to Nova Scotia (Atlantic Canada) than Vermont (Dr Sopher) and a few in Massachusetts? Unless told otherwise I'm assuming these are the closest should I decide to see someone.
Third, and likely the most difficult to answer, especially for myself right now: For anyone that has had any initial resistance to totally embracing Sarno - were you ever able to determine whether your resistance to his theories was based on them clashing with your intellectual programming (from information we've been fed), or based on them clashing with your gut/instincts (deeper levels, perhaps experience based, which in theory we should listen to)? It's obviously easier to change one's intellectual processing than it is to alter one's core beliefs, yet this seems exactly the process that is necessary before improvement. Any nagging doubts must be erased. And yet the doubts as to whether it fully applies in my case seems to run quite deep, perhaps even at gut instinct level, and 'Trust your instincts' is a mantra we all constantly hear.
Primarily, I am afraid of making myself worse by not listening to my body and the pain, as ignoring it and continuing on through thick and thin is exactly how I have triggered major relapses in the past. Segel, in particular, encourages staying with fixed activity schedules no matter how bad the pain and disability get. In my past experience, a recipe for disaster.
But perhaps I have just read too many 'physical' back books, theories, and research papers, and 'programming' has infiltrated core belief and instict. And even if some of the structural diagnoses were valid, it shouldn't have to be this bad!!
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| 13 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| PeterW |
Posted - 08/15/2005 : 15:44:08
I'll correct my Schecter test score to 8/10 as I have had some conditions that might be considered TMS equivalents.
As far as physios, actually I have been worked quite a bit with them over the years and even over the past few months. And massage therapists. What used to work no longer does, I'm still stiff and sore, and whenever they tried to push me to do more, it would cause a relapse. Cant afford them anymore, so 'Discontinue physical treatments' becomes reality by default.
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| moose1 |
Posted - 08/15/2005 : 12:56:52
"Physically, I have had a disk operated on 16 yrs ago, and it is in that spot that the latest 5 month old ball of pain has lodged, on top of the everpresent stiffness."
Peter, this is EXACTLY what I have. I had disc surgery 4 years ago and now have the chronic ball of stiff achiness right where they made the incision. While it is a 24/7 deal, it will go away at what seems random times...if I spend the night out of town, if the TMS moves to, say, my wrist or gives me a case of hives or one of the other equivs. Glad to see someone else has this damn thing.
Moose1 |
| JohnD |
Posted - 08/15/2005 : 12:02:36
Hi Peter,
I could relate to your post about the loss of range of motion, this accompanied my TMS. I overcame my tms pain 2 years ago, and was still very tight even though I was without any pain. Everyone seemed to say that muscle flexibility did not matter so I just lived with it. Then I decided for myself that I wanted to be able to engage in the activities that I did when I was younger so I went to Physical Therapy to regain all my mobility and strength. So in a nutshell I learned that pain isnt caused by tight muscles, but being tight did, in my case, make me more susceptible to delayed onset muscle soreness (soreness the day or 2 after an activity). Now that I have regained my pre tms strength and flexibility/range of motion I feel alot better in the sense that my movements aren't as limited, and now I barely even get sore the day after a stressfull activity.
Only you can know whats right for you, but if I could not reach down to touch my knees then I would definitely seek out help from a physical therapist while working on the tms related pain. |
| PeterW |
Posted - 08/15/2005 : 11:56:12
Wow, thanks so much for all the great feedback folks!
I do know the ball is firmly in my court as far as accepting and applying the psychological treatments. Obviously I have a ways to go yet, a lot of deprogramming to do.
But I have started (somewhat tentatively at first) on the new path some weeks ago. Thinking psychologically, reading this forum, journalling. Yes my personality is a perfect fit - definately achievement oriented, with self esteem issues and a goodist to the extreme. And as Dave astutely points out, a classic intellectualizer. Journalling and talking to a volunteer church councillor has up what seem to be some pretty deep self esteem batterings from my past, and yes, there are things that have made me pretty damn angry. Not the least of which is having so many plans derailed by pain and disability. Funny, a lady I was friendly with a few years ago told me she sensed 'Subterranean anger' within me. Seem to remember running away from that one at the time in typical Mars style.
Yowire, your advice about not listening to instincts and intuition in this case - if they are serving as a distraction from accepting the TMS healing path - is well taken, and thank you, I needed to hear that. When it comes down to it, separating instincts from programming can be impossible, and often futile. Where what we call our instincts come from could be a whole other discussion, but I can see how the unconcious mind could plant things there just to keep stuff we dont want to deal with at bay.
To answer the questions, I score about 7/10 on the Schecter test. The only negatives - Once it has set in I find the pain doesn't move around really and is fairly constant & chronic. Also haven't had much in the way of typical tension illnesses as I'm actually not a tense person on the surface, actually quite calm, patient and clear thinking I'm told. However, underneath can be a different story - and therein may lie the real problem. Physically, I have had a disk operated on 16 yrs ago, and it is in that spot that the latest 5 month old ball of pain has lodged, on top of the everpresent stiffness. MRI said there is now some degeneration at that surgery level, so there are physical things by conventional standards, but not Sarno's. Though it had been basically pain free for many years before that - just had stiffness that could be worked out by stretching . . . and more stretching . . I am becoming more confident that at least the stiffness aspect is TMS, and maybe all of it? As Sarno said in Healing Back Pain "Since he obviously had TMS we should try to rid him of that pain and see what was left".
Anyway, enough of that physical talk and intellectual bla bla from me for now, the time for the leap of faith has arrived. I know I have some work to do, and it's not going to be easy to walk through this new door and throw so many things I've previously believed out the window. Thanks for your encouragement - will keep you posted.
Peter Watson |
| electraglideman |
Posted - 08/15/2005 : 09:35:42
Correction on my first post. I said that I had two disk fused together in my neck. Wrong. I had a disk removed and the two vertebra, 3&4, fused together with cadaver bone and a stainless steel rod with four screws. I now only have six moving vertebra instead of 7 moving vertebra in my neck. I just wish I had know about Dr. Sarno before the surgery. I now think it was completely unnecessary. Stay away from surgery. |
| moose1 |
Posted - 08/15/2005 : 09:19:16
Peter,
My biggest TMS struggle is with morning low back stiffness. While I know for sure that it's due to TMS programming, it's very hard to break out of. However, I'm still working hard at it. For example, I'll wake up at 6am for a bathroom visit and my back will feel fine...not one bit of pain...but when I wake up for the day and hour later it will be like someone whacked me with a 2 x 4. It makes very little sense.
In terms of listening to your body, I think that's a good rule unless what you've got is chronic pain. In that case, you need to listen to your head a little. See if there's anything in your life that is really pissing you off. See if the pain changes at all, or if there are little inconsistancies, like my 6am/7am discrepency.
Good luck,
Moose |
| yowire |
Posted - 08/15/2005 : 07:59:11
PeterW wrote:
quote:
as the central theses conflict with so much conventional thinking, and even my own intuition in some cases.
quote:
And yet the doubts as to whether it fully applies in my case seems to run quite deep, perhaps even at gut instinct level, and 'Trust your instincts' is a mantra we all constantly hear.
We all have had doubts after learning about TMS to some extent and this is not unusual. However, I urge you:
#1. "Don't trust your instincts or intuition", In someone being affected by TMS, the unconscious mind can influence these feelings. Your unconscious mind does not want you to get better. In my pre-Sarno miserable TMS days I had all sorts of core beliefs, gut instincts, inklings, connections, intuitions, theories, and brilliant ideas , all of which were dead wrong.
#2. Forget about conventional thinking. This has not solved the problem in the past and will not solve it in the future.
quote:
Constantly needing stretching and massage to get moving, yet are stiff as plywood again the next morning?
This is classic in TMS.
quote:
For anyone that has had any initial resistance to totally embracing Sarno - were you ever able to determine whether your resistance to his theories was based on them clashing with your intellectual programming (from information we've been fed), or based on them clashing with your gut/instincts (deeper levels, perhaps experience based, which in theory we should listen to)?
It is my experience that none of these questions matter anymore.
Now you must choose what you will believe and you must have it no other way. The choice is clear. The main question to ponder is "Do you want your unconscious mind to prevent you from living the life you want to live."
After eighteen years I assume you've been through the whole medical mill. If you have been cleared of any serious medical condition for your latest 5 month episode than I implore you to take a full leap of faith.
Best of luck on your journey to full recovery,
Yowire
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| Dave |
Posted - 08/15/2005 : 07:44:34
Peter, you are intellectualizing WAY too much.
Treating TMS is all about breaking through the layer of intelligence that is serving as a distraction in and of itself -- in effect, it is a symptom. Stop trying to convince yourself and just do the work. Accept that the pain, as well as the intellectualizing, is distracting you from emotional issues that you are knowingly or unknowingly avoiding.
You need to forget everything you learned before. Put it out of your mind. It's a whole new ballgame now. |
| Suz |
Posted - 08/14/2005 : 20:13:34
Peter - I just wanted to clarify. I get no pain now when I do weight training and I had no pain after the yoga -which involved twisting in all directions - something I was terrified of a year ago. I only get twinges when I run - that is just conditioning and also will go if I persist. Fear is so good at keeping the TMS going. |
| Suz |
Posted - 08/14/2005 : 20:10:43
Peter,
My primary TMS pain was sciatica down the leg and terrible upper stiffness that felt painful when you pressed it - so I would get massages all the time.The masseuse told me that I had unbelievably tight muscles. I always thought it was some kind of arthritic disease. This went on for 12 years. I was unable to do weight lifting and would wake up in the morning as stiff as a board. I got expensive mattresses - went to loads of Physical therapists, orthopedic doctors etc. who told me that I had a condition called "ankylosing spondilitis" - an incurable condition that could go into remission or I could be in a wheel chair by the age of 45. They told me that my stomach and gut issues were part of the disease. I never 100% believed them. In the end, one year ago, I went to the top arthritis specialist in New York - he did hundreds of test and with 4 specialists, they studied my mris. Initially, he was 98% sure I had spondilitis and were about to start me on a drug called enbrel - I would have to inject every week. I begged him to do more blood tests. Well - what do you know, he realized he was mistaken, apologized profusely and said "I think you need Dr. Sarno" because there is nothing wrong with your body. I could kiss this doctor now! His admittance of defeat saved me.
So - stiffness -oh yes. Even the physical therapist who is an expert in spondilitis was sure I had it because my back was impossible to press on.
As far as accepting Sarno's ideas - that has been a longer journey for me. I had to at least accept it on the conscious level. I read the book many times and saw myself in the personality description. I had had all the tests - even a colonscopy, so I knew my body was in healthy shape. I recently, had all my blood work done just to confirm my health. All of this convinced me that Sarno was right. I then went and saw him, got his diagnosis and went to his lecture series. I also went to two panel discussions where I heard from patients who got well.
Next - the next hurdle was doing exercise. i was convinced that running and yoga caused me pain - and lifting heavy weights using my legs and hip area. I started very slowly to do weights. Last week, i took my first yoga class. The running is my last one and I am easing into that slowly. So far - i still get pain but now I can laugh at it. A year ago, when I started the work, I couldn't laugh - it scared me and I thought the running was the problem.
At the same time, I have continued to focus on the emotional work. I started seeing one of Sarno's psychologists 4 months ago. I went kicking adn screaming - I hate therapy. She really got me thinking. Now I am used to thinking - hmm, what happened today - if I feel a twinge. I associate my pain directly with anxiety and anger.
I still have a way to go. The pain has moved around a lot and I have other manifestations - but all of these get less and less every day.
It has been a long journey for me. But after 12 years, it is a Godsend. All I needed in the beginning was a little open-mindness and a lot of patience and persistence.
I say - go for it, Peter. Get any tests done you want to show you are basically healthy. stop focusing on the physical books - they will hinder your progress. Look at the personality type - does it fit you?
Just some of my experience
Suz |
| Fredarm57 |
Posted - 08/14/2005 : 18:02:27
Peter: When I had my first episode of TMS, 15 years ago, my back was so stiff I couldn't bend at all--didn't even bend over enough to lift the toilet seat (let alone enough to pick something up off the floor!). I used a spagetti scoop (the kind with the claw on the end) to lift the seat. No kidding! I look back on it now and it was the most ridiculous thing, but at the time I was terrified to bend. I went to a physical therapist as part of my many pre-Sarno treatments and she said she had never seen anyone so stiff and tight. After I discovered Sarno and worked on my (many) emotional issues, I gradually overcame my fear of movement and got back to more or less normal. I'm still not the most flexible person in the world, but I don't worry about bending over to pick up a pencil off the floor.
Fred
Fred |
| electraglideman |
Posted - 08/14/2005 : 16:59:34
Hello Peter,
Two years ago I was getting up out of a chair when I heard and felt something snap in my lower back. I fell to the floor in pain. I laid in bed for a week. It was the most intense pain I have ever experienced. I took hands full of pain pills to help relieve the pain. This was a week before I had surgery on my neck. I had two disk fused together. I had been having so much pain in my neck for so long that I could no longer put up with it so I had the surgery. A month later when I returned to the doctor who perform the surgery I was sitting in the waiting room reading News Week magazine and there was an article about TMS and Dr. Sarno's methods. As I was reading the article I thought DAMN I didn't need this surgery I've got TMS. When I got home I order Dr Sarno's books and read and reread them over and over. I found this forum and it has been a God send. I just got through walking six miles this afternoon and I have no pain.
So Peter I've gone from not being able to get out of bed without taking hands full of pain pills to walking six miles a day with no pain and I feel great as I type this. Now every once in a while I'll have a mild flair up and I will return to Sarno's books and this forum for help. Most of my flair ups are with my neck so I'm sure I didn't need the surgery.
By the way, this forum has great information. There are people here who I consider experts on TMS and I have learned many things by reading their experiences. If you read the forum you will find someone who has TMS for the same reasons you have it. It could be problems that happened while you were a child many years ago. It could be something at work or your relationship with a love one or a combination of different things. Something has happened in your life that has caused anger to build up inside of you.
There were some post here recently about parent issues that really rang a bell with me and it helped me face those issues. So, my advice to you would be read the books and this forum and I promise you will find what you are looking for.
Good luck! |
| Lmvine |
Posted - 08/14/2005 : 15:30:19
Assume you have ruled out a real physical problem.
When I hurt my back the latest time almost 2 years ago, I had very little flexibility as tested by the PT. It was only after unsuccessful surgery and being told by surgeon "it's not a surgical problem" that I finally realized it was TMS (after research).
Have you taken Schecter's TMS test? I scored 10 out of ten.
Dan |
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