| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Dr. Zafirides |
Posted - 04/19/2012 : 08:38:42
Hi everyone!
Given the wonderful response (on this forum and individual emails I have received from you) to my existential approach to the pain of TMS, I decided to devote this week's podcast to a further discussion of existential anxiety and physical pain of TMS. You can find the podcast here:
http://www.thehealthymind.com/2012/04/18/existential-therapy-how-anxiety-leads-to-physical-pain/
My thanks to all of you at TMS Help for encouraging me to do a show on my approach to TMS. It happened thanks to you!!
I hope you find the program helpful.
Kindly,
Peter Zafirides, MD |
| 14 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Dr. Zafirides |
Posted - 05/01/2012 : 22:31:12
quote:
Originally posted by Ace1
By the way Balto and Hillbilly, your advice is very valuable more than all the research/training or education in the world. You have to remember that medicine is caught in the tunnel of looking at the details and missing the big picture. Would you rather go to a master mechanic who might make your car work in a malfunctioning way for a bit longer or would you rather go to someone w/ no formal training who works out of his garage to fix your car the proper way and without much expense. Trust me, like Dr. Sarno I have also been easily been dissmissed by my colleges for voicing the truth. The the voice of the completely healed patient (w/o the symptom imperative) is the the ultimate word on the matter. Although I still believe that all of the non traumatic non genetic ailments are related to emotions and can be cured by such tx, I have come to see a wide variety in what it takes to make someone better. The central theme though seems to be more peace and not fighting and using your body normally w/o cruthches. Some of this in my case for example is completely unconscience, but is unconscience something that we have worryed about or done for so long that we dont recognize it anymore? (like after you learned how to drive a car you can do it without being aware) I think this concept is simlar to what Balto mentioned before (conditioned to certain situations). So one has to decondition themselves to each emotional situation without worrying about their symptoms which if you did would only condition you to the situation even more. This is the part that is harder for some than others. Also if you left a stressful job or life situation it is obviously easier to overcome TMS than if you just decondition yourself to these situations. These are my thoughts so far. Look at steve o, he is not a physician, but is still trying to spread the word and people seem to be buying his books
Very well said!!
-Dr. Zafirides |
| balto |
Posted - 04/26/2012 : 07:41:07
quote:
Originally posted by art
"I am just speculating, but perhaps earlier in our history, the blushing reaction made the blushing individual look more threatening? So that he would be left alone and not challenged further? "
It's almost certainly, assuming this is on right general track, the
opposite. Blushing makes us appear much less threatening, hence less of a threat, hence an attack not needed. It's quite reasonable to suppose our emotional response to blushing is hardwired after many millions of years. There's no reason it would have changed. When we see someone blushing, the last thing we generally feel like doing is beating the crap out of the person. If anything, it's quite an efficient empathy inducer.
Good one Art,
Or it could be a way to attract the opposite sex. People in Asian blush when they know they are being watch by the opposite sexes. |
| art |
Posted - 04/25/2012 : 07:54:42
"I am just speculating, but perhaps earlier in our history, the blushing reaction made the blushing individual look more threatening? So that he would be left alone and not challenged further? "
It's almost certainly, assuming this is on right general track, the
opposite. Blushing makes us appear much less threatening, hence less of a threat, hence an attack not needed. It's quite reasonable to suppose our emotional response to blushing is hardwired after many millions of years. There's no reason it would have changed. When we see someone blushing, the last thing we generally feel like doing is beating the crap out of the person. If anything, it's quite an efficient empathy inducer. |
| bryan3000 |
Posted - 04/24/2012 : 12:59:54
quote:
Originally posted by Ace1
By the way Balto and Hillbilly, your advice is very valuable more than all the research/training or education in the world. You have to remember that medicine is caught in the tunnel of looking at the details and missing the big picture. Would you rather go to a master mechanic who might make your car work in a malfunctioning way for a bit longer or would you rather go to someone w/ no formal training who works out of his garage to fix your car the proper way and without much expense. Trust me, like Dr. Sarno I have also been easily been dissmissed by my colleges for voicing the truth. The the voice of the completely healed patient (w/o the symptom imperative) is the the ultimate word on the matter. Although I still believe that all of the non traumatic non genetic ailments are related to emotions and can be cured by such tx, I have come to see a wide variety in what it takes to make someone better. The central theme though seems to be more peace and not fighting and using your body normally w/o cruthches.
This is an awesome post, and I hope more doctors catch onto this mode of thinking.
By the way, since I've become "ill" with what ultimately was a nervous breakdown... it's been non-doctors who have provided me with 80% of the real information I needed to make SOME progress. (I still have a way to go.) Those who have been through this before me and shared their experience have been/are being probably my biggest resource. For the most part, traditional doctors have only made me worse through this experience. (I have had some help from therapists, though most still not fully equipped to direct me properly.)
Anyway, great post.
|
| Ace1 |
Posted - 04/24/2012 : 10:40:22
By the way Balto and Hillbilly, your advice is very valuable more than all the research/training or education in the world. You have to remember that medicine is caught in the tunnel of looking at the details and missing the big picture. Would you rather go to a master mechanic who might make your car work in a malfunctioning way for a bit longer or would you rather go to someone w/ no formal training who works out of his garage to fix your car the proper way and without much expense. Trust me, like Dr. Sarno I have also been easily been dissmissed by my colleges for voicing the truth. The the voice of the completely healed patient (w/o the symptom imperative) is the the ultimate word on the matter. Although I still believe that all of the non traumatic non genetic ailments are related to emotions and can be cured by such tx, I have come to see a wide variety in what it takes to make someone better. The central theme though seems to be more peace and not fighting and using your body normally w/o cruthches. Some of this in my case for example is completely unconscience, but is unconscience something that we have worryed about or done for so long that we dont recognize it anymore? (like after you learned how to drive a car you can do it without being aware) I think this concept is simlar to what Balto mentioned before (conditioned to certain situations). So one has to decondition themselves to each emotional situation without worrying about their symptoms which if you did would only condition you to the situation even more. This is the part that is harder for some than others. Also if you left a stressful job or life situation it is obviously easier to overcome TMS than if you just decondition yourself to these situations. These are my thoughts so far. Look at steve o, he is not a physician, but is still trying to spread the word and people seem to be buying his books |
| Dr. Zafirides |
Posted - 04/22/2012 : 19:48:52
quote:
Originally posted by balto
Hillbilly,
John Stossel of 20/20 can't even convince his own neurosurgeon brother to try Dr. Sarno's method for his back pain. My own physician brother thought I am wasting my time with Sarno and Claire Weeke. I think we just have to let the tms experts and the conventional medical community work out their differences. Medical experts are in their own world, The majority of them have the biggest ego in the world. Voices from little people like your and mine mean nothing to them. We didn't have years of education and practice to earn the "right" to speak or suggest anything. We didn't spend years of research. We didn't write any book. We don't have friends in high places. It is extremely rare to find anyone like Ace1 here.
My thought is it will take another 50 years before mindbody medicine will advance enough to be more widely adopted and advance enough to accurately diagnose mindbody illness and come up with the correct treatment. Until then, most new tms/anxiety sufferers will suffer for months and years before they "discover" what will work for them.
Hillbilly,
Our first responsibility is to help those open to the message of TMS. Forums like this one and conferences like the PPD/TMS conference this October will continue to spread the message.
If, at the end of the day, we are doing all we can, that is all that can be done.
Day by day, person by person, step by step...the message is getting out there.
Never give up hope on that!!!
Dr. Z |
| balto |
Posted - 04/19/2012 : 21:10:10
Hillbilly,
John Stossel of 20/20 can't even convince his own neurosurgeon brother to try Dr. Sarno's method for his back pain. My own physician brother thought I am wasting my time with Sarno and Claire Weeke. I think we just have to let the tms experts and the conventional medical community work out their differences. Medical experts are in their own world, The majority of them have the biggest ego in the world. Voices from little people like your and mine mean nothing to them. We didn't have years of education and practice to earn the "right" to speak or suggest anything. We didn't spend years of research. We didn't write any book. We don't have friends in high places. It is extremely rare to find anyone like Ace1 here.
My thought is it will take another 50 years before mindbody medicine will advance enough to be more widely adopted and advance enough to accurately diagnose mindbody illness and come up with the correct treatment. Until then, most new tms/anxiety sufferers will suffer for months and years before they "discover" what will work for them. |
| Dr. Zafirides |
Posted - 04/19/2012 : 20:50:18
quote:
Originally posted by Hillbilly
I think you are very much on the right track in exploring the condition from an anxiety standpoint instead of rage. I don't believe the TMS concept is going to ever catch on broadly in the medical and psychological communities unless approached differently.
I wonder if you've explored the distraction part of this theory further to answer the "purpose" of blushing. You claim distraction from emotion is the purpose of physical pain, so then if the blushing is an expression of embarrassment, does it have a purpose of distraction also? What about goose bumps, dry mouth, shaking, leg weakness, air hunger, and other physical reactions to emotion? All of these we freely associate with anxiety or nervousness, and we don't need to view them through the prism of Freudian mind theory or repression in order to be understood. Why then do it with soft tissue pains? Do you see this as a separate process involving the emotional structure of brain, chemistry, and nerves?
___________________________________________________________________________________________
You have described the body's physical reaction to anxiety or nervousness. But the relevant question is:
WHY did anxiety occur in the first place? Of all the various bodily sensations to arise in a situation, WHY nervousness? WHY anxiety? WHY pain?
Trying to answer the WHY is the reason various schools of thought on human behavior have tried to formulate a theory.
----
With regards to blushing, perhaps there was an evolutionary advantage to the biological reaction of blushing in our ancestors? I am just speculating, but perhaps earlier in our history, the blushing reaction made the blushing individual look more threatening? So that he would be left alone and not challenged further?
The reaction in us today may be an evolutionary remnant of that time when it was more purposeful?
I guess it really doesn't matter. The point I was trying to make was that in a split second, our body will react physically to emotions. This may be what is happening in TMS.
Great questions though!
Kindly,
Peter Zafirides, MD
http://www.thehealthymind.com |
| Hillbilly |
Posted - 04/19/2012 : 13:34:19
Shari,
I think the verdict is out on what causes blushing, because some children blush and act bashfully long before they understand what shame is. There is a school of thought that some people are born with a strong nervous system, while others have great vulnerability, much like certain diseases have a genetic link.
I think, as Dr. Zifirides alludes, that all of us are born with existential anxieties, things that if we approach a situation that triggers their memory cause symptoms (e.g. the fight or flight response we recognize when spooked). Those with more vulnerable nervous systems are far more prone to trouble dealing with prolonged stress. The good news is that we can build resistance.
I used blushing in my example (among others) because the podcast refers to it directly as an example of a psychophysiological expression. The question still remains as to whether soft tissue pain, or "TMS" is a direct expression of an emotion or a distraction from something else. And if it is, how, physiologically, does the brain sort out what to express directly and which to distract from? This is part of the difficulty with the theory, in my opinion.
___________________________________________________________________________________________
Aided and abetted by corrupt analysts, patients who have nothing better to do with their lives often use the psychoanalytic situation to transform insignificant childhood hurts into private shrines at which they worship unceasingly the enormity of the offenses committed against them. This solution is immensely flattering to the patients—as are all forms of unmerited self-aggrandizement; it is immensely profitable for the analysts—as are all forms pandering to people's vanity; and it is often immensely unpleasant for nearly everyone else in the patient's life.
Dr. Thomas Szasz |
| shari |
Posted - 04/19/2012 : 12:33:46
I also want to add that if reading Dr. Sarno's books helped me overcome physical pain, it didn't help me deal with inflammation which I call my "silent pains". It was Claire Weekes' approach that really helped me with these silent pains. |
| shari |
Posted - 04/19/2012 : 12:24:00
Blushing comes from shame. It's the shame we carry from a time when we were blamed for something we did but were never given a change to make amend for it or repair what we did wrong. As children, we felt isolated and unique in our shame and developed a need to hide this part of us that made us ashamed. We became very guarded about this "secret" part of us and lived with the constant fear of having our shame exposed. And so, whenever we think that someone is seeing through us and into our shame, we go through these symptoms of anxiety or panic attack, shortness of breath, pounding heart, dry mouth, blushing... |
| Hillbilly |
Posted - 04/19/2012 : 10:51:12
Wrld,
It is extremely relevant. You missed the point. If these other physical reactions are direct expressions that are easily associated, why the murk and mire about back pain and distraction? Where is the distraction? When you blush, you feel embarrassment, right? When you get back pain, according to the theory, you DON'T feel rage. One is direct, the other a ruse created by the brain? I don't buy this. I would like to hear the doctor's opinion.
___________________________________________________________________________________________
Aided and abetted by corrupt analysts, patients who have nothing better to do with their lives often use the psychoanalytic situation to transform insignificant childhood hurts into private shrines at which they worship unceasingly the enormity of the offenses committed against them. This solution is immensely flattering to the patients—as are all forms of unmerited self-aggrandizement; it is immensely profitable for the analysts—as are all forms pandering to people's vanity; and it is often immensely unpleasant for nearly everyone else in the patient's life.
Dr. Thomas Szasz |
| wrldtrv |
Posted - 04/19/2012 : 10:40:11
"I wonder if you've explored the distraction part of this theory further to answer the "purpose" of blushing."
Hillbilly, I know where you are coming from regarding anxiety vs rage, but I'm not sure this is relevant. Obviously not ALL manifestations of emotions in the body are related to rage and I don't think Sarno would say they are. Blushing equals anxiety; goosebumps equals anxiety; backache may equal rage. |
| Hillbilly |
Posted - 04/19/2012 : 09:23:48
I think you are very much on the right track in exploring the condition from an anxiety standpoint instead of rage. I don't believe the TMS concept is going to ever catch on broadly in the medical and psychological communities unless approached differently.
I wonder if you've explored the distraction part of this theory further to answer the "purpose" of blushing. You claim distraction from emotion is the purpose of physical pain, so then if the blushing is an expression of embarrassment, does it have a purpose of distraction also? What about goose bumps, dry mouth, shaking, leg weakness, air hunger, and other physical reactions to emotion? All of these we freely associate with anxiety or nervousness, and we don't need to view them through the prism of Freudian mind theory or repression in order to be understood. Why then do it with soft tissue pains? Do you see this as a separate process involving the emotional structure of brain, chemistry, and nerves?
___________________________________________________________________________________________
Aided and abetted by corrupt analysts, patients who have nothing better to do with their lives often use the psychoanalytic situation to transform insignificant childhood hurts into private shrines at which they worship unceasingly the enormity of the offenses committed against them. This solution is immensely flattering to the patients—as are all forms of unmerited self-aggrandizement; it is immensely profitable for the analysts—as are all forms pandering to people's vanity; and it is often immensely unpleasant for nearly everyone else in the patient's life.
Dr. Thomas Szasz |
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