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Joel D.
USA
12 Posts |
 Posted - 07/04/2005 : 17:08:21
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| Something I just can't get out of my mind. My MRI showed a herniated disc at L5-S1. Neurosurgeon says may be causing the butt and leg pain I have been having since October. TMS doctor says TMS. How does the TMS doctor know for sure that the disc is NOT the problem? This is one question I have not been able to get an answer to. How can the TMS doctor be 100% sure? I feel like to accept the TMS diagnosis I will have to get this answered. They say that a herniated disc is RARELY the cause,(which means to me that it IS the cause sometimes) so how do they know when the herniated disc is and is not causing the pain. PLEASE I have to have this answered. |
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n/a
560 Posts |
Posted - 07/04/2005 : 17:24:41
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Hi Joel,
Well, first, the Neurosurgeon is saying the herniated disc "may" be causing the pain, but he has no proof of that, and he will never be able to prove it. It is his best explanation. You may have surgery and the pain may or may not go away and in most cases when the pain does go away it is a placebo effect. The pain will go away and/or just return to another part of the body sometime later.
Second, the TMS doctor will look at your pain patterns and will determine if the diagnosis fits with the pain your are experiencing. As with your case- according to the TMS doctor- the diagnosis does not fit the pain patterns.
Third, many people walk around with herniated discs and experience no pain. There have been studies done on this. (see Healing Back Pain by Dr. John Sarno)
Finally, most people with herniated discs recover 100% with TMS treatment which proves that the herniated disk was not the source of the pain in the first place.
The bottom line is that doctors (or these back specialists) have not been able to demonstrate conclusivley that herniated discs cause pain. TMS doctors, on the otherhand, have in fact demonstrated that herniated disks DO NOT cause pain. Now, which is more scientific, theories or proven track records of success?
All this is outlined quite clearly in Dr. Sarno's Books and lectures and he provides ample proof to back this up. His successful track record in treating these types of cases demonstrate the accuracy of his diagnosis.
There are all kinds of myths surrounding what causes back pain- most of it is just speculation with no basis in fact.
Now you might say you are not convinced, but I would ask on what basis are you convinced that disc herniation is the source of your pain given what I have just written? |
Edited by - n/a on 07/05/2005 06:40:05 |
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polly
127 Posts |
Posted - 07/04/2005 : 20:45:55
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Joel,
It's an honest question and you seem desperate for an answer.
You could make a tall pile of the MRI's showing herniated discs on the people here. You will still have the "but what if mine is a worse herniated disc" question.
Your post suggests you've been to see a TMS doctor. I don't think the question is whether or not the disc is causing you pain. I think it's whether or not you can accept that you can make yourself better. You'll know when you're ready to accept it. Some people never do. It's not soooo easy.
I have a dear friend who went to see Sarno (I did too). She kept going back because she wasn't getting better. He finally told her that she wasn't getting it. He was patient, kind and giving, but it was futile. My friend lost both of her children. One was 19 and killed by a drunk driver. The other was 22 and it was just as tragic. She tells me all the time of some new shoe insert, chair, bed, doctor, etc. that is helping her. This is all in between the agony she goes through. She can't make the connection.
Personally, I don't believe that herniated discs cause pain at all. I've just seen too many instances of people getting better by approaching it as TMS. I rarely, if ever, have seen anyone get better through the multi billion dollar medical industry. I was told I would be in a wheelchair for the rest of my life.
I hope you get better any way you can. Pain stinks!
Polly |
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n/a
374 Posts |
Posted - 07/05/2005 : 02:45:15
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Hi Joel D.
The thing is, you wont know for sure unless you give the TMS diagnosis a try. You are in the difficult position so many of us who post here have found ourselves in - your neurosurgeon says one thing and your TMS doctor another. As Peter points out, your surgeon uses he word 'may', in other words, he is not sure.
I have a herniation at L4 - L5 - the report that my doctor got with my MRI back scan, which was done because of severe pain both sides in the lower sacrum area; said 'inconclusive'. Like your surgeon they were not sure if the herniation was causing the pain or not.
This was early 2003 - two years on, I know for sure that the herniation was not the root of the problem. I am back living a normal life and back at work. I was headed for a life of increasing disability and misery if I had gone with the conventional wisdom. You'll know what I'm talking about - Don't do this, don't do that, sit this way, not that way, sleep on such and such kind of bed, buy this back-care product, consult this back expert and that expert - on and on, ad nauseum. My whole life was revolving round my back pain.
Of course there were times that I worried if I was doing the right thing - ignoring the restrictions, doing a psychological workout instead! Turns out I chose the right path.
I can't tell you for sure that your problem is the same as mine, but it certainly sounds like it could well be.
Best wishes
Anne |
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pault
USA
169 Posts |
Posted - 07/05/2005 : 04:38:07
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| Joel,As you may have read in the good book,herniated discs are a normal,abnormality of the human body.Many people have them and do not know it! The body allows enough room for a little toothpaste type material to hit the nerve without causing problems.I have three hernitated disc's,and at one time it was so bad I lost the feeling in my left leg and the top of my right leg and bladder for a while! I even had surgery and the pain came back!After 18 yrs of hell and limited activity,zillions of $ spent,I was still in trouble.Now I am pain free and have returned to running and doing what ever I want including lifting very heavy objects.Be patient and believe in the system (fear is the best tool of tms),read,read,think psychologically,feel great soon! Paul. |
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Stryder
686 Posts |
Posted - 07/05/2005 : 09:21:58
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Hi Joel D.,
Ok, I'm going to go down this path briefly with a physically-related explanation in the hope that it will help you to start thinking psychologically.
Ever wake up in bed while sleeping on your arms, and your arm(s) has gone to 'sleep'? It feels numb, tingly and your muscles don't work until you roll off you arm. Basically that experience is nerve impingement.
Ten years ago I 'extruded' my L5-S1 disc so bad the inner disk material actually escaped from the disc itself, as confirmed on my MRI. I had been having back pain for years prior to this, and linked the two conditions. I thought I was doomed. I was wrong.
Of course, you should be checked out by a doctor to rule out any red flag symptoms (example: loss of bowel/bladder control). I checked out ok and found that I was in no danger, no a conservative approach is a safe path.
There is nothing to say that you can't have both a bad disc and TMS at the same time, and that the two conditions are NOT RELATED TO EACH OTHER.
Like I mentioned above in 'my arm is asleep', nerve compression typically causes loss of feeling, numbness, weakness, very rarely is this painful. Its pretty benign, and often goes away as the disc material dehydrates. So, even if your disc was pressing on the nerve, you should feel loss of feeling, not pain. At the same time, your anger over your bad disc (in conjunction with your other life stressors) has your TMS cranked up and causing you a lot of pain. Like myself, your superactive mind had connected the the two conditions.
You must unlearn this faultly logic and do the TMS work to solve the TMS pain part. Really take a look at your life and identify what is truly bothering you. Put your knowledge of your MRI and the like in the deep freeze, and just forget about it, its not important and not related to what you need to spend your brain power on.
Hope this helps, -Stryder |
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Joel D.
USA
12 Posts |
Posted - 07/05/2005 : 17:16:41
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| Thank's guys for all the reply's. I really don't think the disc is the problem. There are just days when I have doubts. I am working very hard on this. One thing that tells me this is not a disc problem is that the pain subsides a lot during strenuous activity. I would think it would get worse as the day goes on if it were a disc problem. Polly, I am so sorry to hear about your your friends problems. We never know how good we have it until we hear of someone else's tragedy. That is so sad. Again, thank's guys for the motivation to keep at it. I'll beat this thing. |
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Baseball65
USA
734 Posts |
Posted - 07/05/2005 : 17:26:36
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Hi Joel...
That is HOT!!
That one sentence has been the hang-up of ALL of us!!
I remember reading the book and thinking "Wow...this is freaking great" and than in moments of doubt and frustration thinking "Oh...I must be the exception in that sentence(rarely/sometimes)"
I had the same experience as you.I could push the whole stack at P.T....the therapist was amazed at how strong I was(except my leg which had atrophied to a stick)....problem was,I had very little pain when I worked out(clue??)
I also really liked my Physical therapist(clue??)
I also HATED my fat pig know-it-all-talking-into-a-dictaphone-arrogant-M-er-F-er Surgeon/Doctor
and my back and legs buuuuuuurned on every visit(clue??)
The irony is,the TMS personality is meticulous and perfectionistic and no perfectionist could go through that book and NOT stumble on the one possible exception.It's in our nature.
You're right on time
peace
Baseball65 |
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johnnyg
USA
138 Posts |
Posted - 07/06/2005 : 08:24:32
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| Joel: If the neurosurgeon says it may be causing your pain, then chances are the MRI has no clear visual evidence of nerve impingement whatsoever. If that is the case, then your neurosurgeon is guessing with best of the rest of the conventional medical world. This is what happened to me. I have a bulge at l5 S1. Almost everytime this herniation shows up, doctors see concommitant sciatica symptoms, but NOT in me. All my pain is low back. There is most likely no direct correlation b/w a herniated l5 S1 and sciatica, and I think Dr. S does a good job of demonstrating that in HBP. |
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Albert
USA
210 Posts |
Posted - 07/06/2005 : 10:43:12
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Just think of one of your nerve endings by one of your finger tips. The neuron that supplies it extends from your spinal chord all the way to the tip of your finger. Throughout its length it presses up against all kinds of bodily parts (muscle tissue etc.). Despite this you're only aware of that nerve when you touch something with your finger tip. Why is this? Because neurons are designed so that they'll get stimulated only in very specific ways. Close to the area where a neuron connects to other neurons is a structure called an axon hillock. This structure needs to receive and impulse of a certain strength before it will allow the neuron it serves to fire up. These impulses come either from a person's brain, or from the stimuli a nerve is so supposed to respond to (e.g., pressure at the tip of a finger). If neurons responded to pressure along their length, a person's body would have a very difficult time operating properly, because all of a person's nerves press against various parts of a person's body as they extend from a person's spinal chord to the bodily places for which they serve a "functional" purpose.
With the above in mind, it hard to see have a worn disc could cause the axon hillock etc to be bypassed. If anything, a "significant" amount of pressure would stop a neuron from functioning all together.
Perhaps doctors come up with the worn disc diagnosis, because they don't know the real cause. There are several studies which have found that the occurence of back pain doesn't correspond well with the existence of a herniated disc. There are a lot of people who have herniated discs but no back or neck pain, and there are a lot of people who have back and/or neck pain, but no herniated discs. |
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wolf29
USA
108 Posts |
Posted - 07/07/2006 : 11:59:32
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Just read through this thread and it sure hit home. One of my stumbling blocks is the thought in the back of my mind that my L4-L5 herniation, from a 2003 MRI, could possibly be the cause of my pain. Although as demonstrated in other posts here, when I lift weights I don't feel pain. It's later or the next day. I'm sure it's because I "expect" to feel pain so I do.
I've also noticed that everytime I go on vacation I have not a single symptom of back pain. I can do anything I want.
I am into weight training big time and do have a fear of certain exercises that in my mind could hurt my back. How did you all get over the fear of doing certain things you felt you shouldn't or couldn't do? Was it like Sarno suggests in his books, to just keep at it and challenge the pain?
I have other things to work on but the fear of certain exercises is one that I feel I must get over. I've worked too hard over the years to get in shape to quit now and I love it too much to let the pain win. Besides if I quit, then TMS wins. But how do you just ignore it?
Jay |
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Singer_Artist
USA
1516 Posts |
Posted - 07/07/2006 : 12:44:43
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WOW what a great thread...I have related to so much of it...I have herniated L4-5 and L5-S1 discs and herniated C5-6 and C6-7 in my neck as well as bulges above there...So my spine is loaded w/ them..Yet..prior to 6 weeks ago (when i merely bent over to pick up an ice pack that fell off my knee) my neck was doing pretty well...I still didn't have full range of motion, especially looking up, but I was walking and working out in the gym, full body and loving it...I am sure the reason i didn't have full range of motion back was due to FEAR that the medical people put in me...DON"T LOOK UP, that is the worst thing for your neck...So now I can't look up at all..but then again..i am still in the middle of this acute neck attack of TMS...but healing! As for the back, as long as I stretch and keep my weight down, it doesn't bother me...Not to say it is PHYSICAL because I know now, more then ever that I have TMS in MULTIPLE locations and many equivalents too..And I didn't get a DX from a TMS doctor...Just am in the process of doing the work and seeing a TMS therapist...Bottom line, read and re-read the wonderful replies that you got, they say it all!  |
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wolf29
USA
108 Posts |
Posted - 07/07/2006 : 12:50:59
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quote:
Originally posted by Singer_Artist
I am sure the reason i didn't have full range of motion back was due to FEAR that the medical people put in me...DON"T LOOK UP, that is the worst thing for your neck...So now I can't look up at all..
Yep, these well intentioned doctors can screw us up with their diagnosis and recommendations. I was given the typical stretches to do, went to rehab, told how to pick things up and how to baby my back. I'm basically tired of babying my back.
What is it about some person in a white coat that makes us believe what we hear? |
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arielbackpain
Argentina
1 Posts |
Posted - 11/25/2012 : 07:32:41
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Herniated Disc Pain Relief and Treatments Guide.
Herniated discs are a major cause of disability in people under 45.
I am one of those people.
For the past 3 years I suffer L5S1 disc hernia, the most common type of hernia.
But each case is slightly different and that makes it very difficult to treat.
In my case I also have hyperlordosis, scoliosis and spina bifida.
I have been trying countless treatments and supposed cures. I was often left in disappointment but fortunately found some sources of relief.
I'm not a doctor, just a student with lots of experience with a mother which is a doctor.
At this time, despite my efforts, I have reached a point where I need surgery.
But if I have had the experience and the knowledge I have now I could have avoided this complicated situation for sure.
That's why I made a PDF with my experience and everything I’ve investigated and used to relieve my pain over the years.
I offer this guide for FREE to those who ask me by mail to this address.
dibujantesautocadrb(at)gmail(dot)com
Since my insurance does not cover this type of operation I'm asking for help through the IndieGoGo platform. Through a donation you can get the PDF, “Herniated Disc Pain Relief and Treatments Guide”. Through this platform I will also answer any questions you may have about the subject.
If you share this link, make a donation or just give it a like on facebook or tweeter you’d be helping me greatly.
w w w (dot)indiegogo(dot)com/herniatesdiscrelief
There I explain who I am and where I come from, watch it if you can and share it if you like it.
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eric watson
USA
601 Posts |
Posted - 11/25/2012 : 07:46:42
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this is something-have you read sarnos book healing back pain
you know we heal here right-i mean really heal
you have just landed in the only place in the world that can keep you from that surgery and totally heal your back |
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tennis tom
USA
4746 Posts |
Posted - 11/25/2012 : 08:34:13
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SCAM ALERT !
quote:
Originally posted by arielbackpain
I'm not a doctor, just a student with lots of experience with a mother which is a doctor.
At this time, despite my efforts, I have reached a point where I need surgery.
I offer this guide for FREE to those who ask me by mail to this address.
Since my insurance does not cover this type of operation I'm asking for help
If you share this link, make a donation...
SCAM ALERT! |
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eric watson
USA
601 Posts |
Posted - 11/25/2012 : 10:14:36
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| thanks tom |
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herniated disc question
