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tennis tom

USA
4539 Posts

Posted - 09/29/2006 :  10:36:06  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
On page 87 of Dr. Sarno's THE DIVIDED MIND, there is a passage that simplified, clarified and summed up TMS for me. Being an un-reformed TMS goodist, I am compelled to quote it; (I inserted the bold emphasis):

"...Freud and his followers, considered psychosomatic manifestations as a form of illness representing defective personalities. I strongly disagree. Psychosomatic phenomena are not a form of illness. They must be seen as part of the human condition-to which everyone is susceptible. They include a wide range of disorders, some very serious and even life threatening, but our view is that they may all be traced back to the primeval conflict between our two minds, the uncoscious and the conscious, the id and the ego and supergo, the ancient "paleomammalian mind" and the modern "neomammalian mind," each mind reacting in the only way it knows to the pressures of daily life."

Edited by - tennis tom on 04/07/2007 09:32:31

lobstershack

Australia
250 Posts

Posted - 09/29/2006 :  13:38:13  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
you know when you see someone yawn and feel like yawning yourself? i've read multiple sources that cite this phenomenon as as way to communicate being tired. This might have been useful for many purposes, such as synchronizing the sleeping schedules of a group that lived together. This would be the reason yawning seems contagious. When you see someone yawn, your brain makes you become more tired yourself, and so you start yawning as well. This helps everyone go to sleep at about the same time.

what purpose does the TMS paradigm serve when viewed from an evolutionary standpoint? I can't seem to wrap my brain around this...

Seth
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Suz

559 Posts

Posted - 09/29/2006 :  13:46:38  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Interesting question, Seth

I understand that the brain is trying to protect us from feeling very deep, painful, angry feelings - as if we might go into some sort of massive melt down if we did. The distraction of the different pain syndromes are there to help - make sure the emotional melt down doesn't happen. Maybe at the beginning of time, during cavemen times, this woudl have threatened survival - no time for melt downs. People had to hunt, take care of the family - etc etc.

What is extraordinary is that our brains/bodies have not adapted over the thousands of years. The distractions are still there. The brain is still trying to protect us.
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tennis tom

USA
4539 Posts

Posted - 10/03/2006 :  23:03:41  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
From page 96 of Dr. John Sarno's THE DIVIDED MIND:

"Here's a seeming paradox: the symptoms created by the brain-mind,
which we deplore as evils, are in fact generated for our protecton. One of my patients told me, "I think of TMS as a gift." He meant it revealed the true cause of his pain, and it taught him things about himself and his feelings that he would not have known otherwise. In some cases it leads to much needed psychotherapy."
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tennis tom

USA
4539 Posts

Posted - 10/05/2006 :  10:03:14  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Quote from page 94 of Dr. Sarno's THE DIVIDED MIND:

"The rage I'm talking about here is an accumulation of anger generated daily over many years and kept repressed for the reason given above. The decision maker in the brain has decided that the overt expression of unbridled rage would ruin the person's life, and to prevent that from happening, it automatically initiates physical symptoms in the body without consulting the conscious, rational mind."
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Kristin

98 Posts

Posted - 10/05/2006 :  12:16:24  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Is the "decision maker" in the brain what Sarno refers to as the parent (albiet, an over protective parent) reacting to the dangerous irrationality of the child? When we start to deal with TMS and fight it, the adult (mature, rational?) takes control and realizes the truth of the matter and neutralizes the over-controlling "parent"?
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tennis tom

USA
4539 Posts

Posted - 10/05/2006 :  22:16:58  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
According to Sarno on page 56, the decision maker is the ego.
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tennis tom

USA
4539 Posts

Posted - 10/10/2006 :  10:00:23  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
From page 101 of Dr. John Sarno's THE DIVIDED MIND:

...feelings of inferiority are universal, varying in degree and intensity, but not limited to "neurotics." The sense of inferiority appears to be the primary spur to the drives to be perfect and good that is exceedlingly common in patients suffering with TMS. It caused Adler to conceptualize the superiority complex, which is synonymous with what we have described as the drive to be perfect. It must be that we are constanly trying to prove to ouvselves and the world that we are worthwhile, not inferior...success is often built on insecurity, which is another expression of the same idea. Feelings of inferiority are of immense importance if one is to understand the psychosomatic phenomena they generate. The drive to superiority perfection) is a pressure...
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tennis tom

USA
4539 Posts

Posted - 10/12/2006 :  09:37:53  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
From page 102-103 of Dr. John Sarno's THE DIVIDED MIND:

"These tendencies, [the drives to be perfect and to be good]...seem to be almost universal...

"Freud thought that the neurotic throws such a clear light on the normal largely because the two are really not so different from each other."...We do not think our patients are neurotic. The psychosomatic reactions they are experiencing are both normal and universal."

"Striving to be good is not a sickness...psychosomatic disorders..are not pathological or "neurotic" but an integral part of normal living."

Edited by - tennis tom on 10/13/2006 00:49:07
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tennis tom

USA
4539 Posts

Posted - 10/17/2006 :  09:02:10  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
From page 104 of Dr. John Sarno's THE DIVIDED MIND:

"You can study the anatomy, physiology, and chemistry of the brain forever and a day, but it will teach you nothing about the psychosomatic phenomena, nor about emotional disorders like depression for that matter...the deviations from the normal...are not the cause of the disorders but the result of the emotional phenomena...it is emotions that drive the chemistry in the brain not the other way around. Altered serotonin chemistry is not a disorder, it is an emotionally induced chemical reaction resulting from the the true symptom which is depression."

Edited by - tennis tom on 10/17/2006 09:30:42
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tennis tom

USA
4539 Posts

Posted - 10/17/2006 :  09:19:49  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
From page 106 of Dr. John Sarno's THE DIVIDED MIND:

"Mainstream medicine is aware that emotions can worsen an existing disease process, but it appears to be unable to understand or accept the idea that that symptoms can be initiated in response to emotional states. The altered physiology and chemistry that produce these symptoms, whether pysical or affective, are induced by unconscious emotions. Thirty years working with mindbody disorders-TMS and a host of others-clearly support this."

Edited by - tennis tom on 10/18/2006 00:20:37
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Littlebird

USA
391 Posts

Posted - 10/17/2006 :  15:16:14  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
TT, I'm enjoying the reminders you're providing from TDM. I'm currently reading the Brady book, along with "Self-Analysis," 2 business books and a computer book, so I haven't been going back to Sarno's work much at this point.

The points you've quoted from pp. 104 and 106 were among the most convincing to me that this doctor had my functional issues pegged. With every new doctor I've seen, I've told them about the high-stress situations I was in when I first developed symptoms and every time I developed additional symptoms, but even when they agreed that the emotions triggered the whole mess, they couldn't tell me how to undo what those emotions had done to me.

Just wanted to let you know that these tidbits are appreciated.

Corey
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tennis tom

USA
4539 Posts

Posted - 10/18/2006 :  09:10:58  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Hi Littlebird,

I'm glad you are finding them helpful.

tt
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tennis tom

USA
4539 Posts

Posted - 10/19/2006 :  01:13:08  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Form page 107 of Dr. John Sarno's THE DIVIDED MIND:

"Guilt is tied in with inferiority feelings and the need to be perfect-good...People blame themselves for lots of things because of their low self-esteem and their perfectionist tendencies. There appears to be a deeply ingrained habit of self-deprecation that is part of the very fabric of their personalities, influencing every moment of their lives. If they had a more robust sense of themselves, they would have a more balanced view of the things they feel guilty about. This, of course, points back to childhood when they didn't get the support they needed to give them this more robust sense of self."
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MikeJ

United Kingdom
75 Posts

Posted - 10/19/2006 :  03:36:39  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
@Tennis Tom: Thanks for sharing this. Keep them coming, it's very interesting.

quote:
"Psychosomatic phenomena are not a form of illness. They must be seen as part of the human condition-to which everyone is susceptible."


Could some characteristics and traits in people other than perfectionism make them more susceptible than others?
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Littlebird

USA
391 Posts

Posted - 10/20/2006 :  14:39:35  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
There are probably a number of other causes of repressed anger and guilt besides perfectionism and goodism. Those two characteristics often lead a person to feel anger with themselves, but other experiences can cause a person to feel the low self-esteem that Dr. Sarno mentions and he also seems to indicate at times that the repressed anger doesn't have to be directed at ourselves to cause TMS. I'd say that perfectionism and goodism are not the only characteristics that make one more susceptible to developing TMS.
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armchairlinguist

USA
1397 Posts

Posted - 10/20/2006 :  14:51:00  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
"This, of course, points back to childhood when they didn't get the support they needed to give them this more robust sense of self."

This is very much like what Alice Miller says in The Drama of the Gifted Child. I think I now need to re-read TDM, having read TDGC, and see if I can more clearly hear the psychological message.

--
Wherever you go, there you are.
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PeterW

Canada
102 Posts

Posted - 10/20/2006 :  15:18:36  Show Profile  Reply with Quote


"Could some characteristics and traits in people other than perfectionism make them more susceptible than others?"

Dr Brady (one of Dr Sarno's disciples) has addressed this question and added something to Dr Sarno's work in my opinion. He identifies several pain prone personalities, including perfectionist, people pleaser, legalist, stoic and fear prone, plus combo personalities.

I'd say these are all tied into the feelings of inferiority and self esteem issues that Dr Sarno describes.

http://www.bradyinstitute.com/aboutBook/painProne.asp

I actually had a chuckle reading the legalist section, it brought to mind a few never ending debates on this board! Though I have to admit I've got a fair bit of it going on myself.

I'm another one appreciating the Divided Mind quotes Tom.
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chocolatetears

USA
1 Posts

Posted - 10/21/2006 :  14:13:23  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Hi,Im so glad to find this site. i have been suffering with TMS for over 18 yrs. i have read all the books from dr. Sarno and also have gone to the Brady Institute in Florida looking for help(he's one of Dr. sarnos collegues) i have bought the videos and workbook also, which i have worked on several times now.i also go to a therapist in fact, i've been to at least 5 of them. still i suffer from terrible sharp stabs in my right hip almost evveryday. i have been to several MD's but to no avail. am i missing something? i almost always know what the pain is about after the pain comes. i don't know what else to do. i feel as though im going crazy. i know for a certain that it is TMS but nothing seems to help. my pain is the type that is a very fast sharp stab in my hip and then it's gone, but it can come right back or not come back until the next day.it even wakes me up out of a sound sleep. i have not ever gone more than a day and 1/2 without it, at one time. i feel so frustrated because no one can help me , or at least not as yet. does anyone out there have any suggestions. thanks for listening.
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tennis tom

USA
4539 Posts

Posted - 10/21/2006 :  19:48:34  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Hi Choclatetears,

Welcome to the site. Since I like chocolate, I like your name. It reminds me of the Three Musketeers candy bar. Are you bitter-sweet from your hip pain? Could you explain how you came upon your name, it is intrigueing? If I cried choclate I would figure out how to be crying all day and licking my chops.

What did Dr. Brady say about your hip?

Don't worry about being "crazy". Like they say, "You don't have to be crazy to work here but it helps." Dr. Sarno would say that it's universal and part of the human condition.

Have you read Dr. Sarno's newest book, THE DIVIDED MIND?

I can relate to the right hip since it's been my pain focus for a long time also.

Welcome and keep it coming,
tt
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tennis tom

USA
4539 Posts

Posted - 11/04/2006 :  08:43:03  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Page 115 Dr. John Sarno's : THE DIVIDED MIND:

"It is likely that Mrs. B would never have engaged in psychotherapy if she had not developed back pain and been admitted to our program. After all, she did not suffer anxiety or depresssion. She was not mentally ill. Why would she see a psychotherapist to understand where the backache came from. The pracitce of psychsomatic medicine identifies a whole new population of people needing psychotherapy, most of whom would never have realized the need but for the pain." (emphasis mine)
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page 117:

"Psychosomatic disorders are common and universal, and we are all likely to experience them from time to time. One is reminded of the Irish novelist Thomas Flanagans's observation, "We possess ideas, but we are possessed by feelings. They lie too deep for understanding, astir with their own secret life and carrying us with them".
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Page 138:

"While all the subjects included in the lecture are covered in my books, presenting them verbally has a greater impact than the written word."
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page 137:

"...patients almost invariably have been misinformed and frightened by their advisors, medical and nonmedical, whose advice tends to worsen the symptoms. If the patient is unfortunate enough to have some muscle weakness, he/she has often been advised to have surgery in order to prevent permanent nerve damage."

Edited by - tennis tom on 11/04/2006 08:48:52
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