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positivevibes
204 Posts |
 Posted - 05/08/2008 : 16:44:20
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I'm not sure I can stop being a "goodist" without thinking of myself as "not a considerate person anymore." In my mind, being a goodist and doing good deeds/being considerate of others are very closely linked -- almost one and the same. It's also part of my basic nature -- to think of others and how my actions may affect them. It's how I was brought up.
Where does one end, and the other begin? How can you still be a good person but not hurt yourself TMS-wise with too much goodism?
I've learned how to say "no" to people; I don't have a problem with that. It's the more subtle things that confuse me. Is "goodism" putting other people first, ahead of your own needs? Or is it more than that? I guess I don't have a clear definition of the term, although I understand what Dr. Sarno is talking about. Especially on that latest TV news report where he tells a patient something like: "you are in pain because you are trying to be A Good and A Perfect." I like the way he phrased that! |
Edited by - positivevibes on 05/08/2008 16:49:16 |
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scottjmurray
266 Posts |
Posted - 05/09/2008 : 02:26:46
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goodism is kind of weird. i know what it feels like in my brain when i get the compulsion to do it, but it's very difficult to put into words. essentially, it can only happen if my shame/defectiveness schema is "latched onto" me. basically, what is going on is that i am (for whatever reason) feeling like i am not a good person and therefore i have to "bend" into someone else's reality and be nice to them. it's not a healthy thing to do.
there's a huge difference between doing good things for people and being a goodist. a goodist compulsively does nice things, talks to people about stuff they don't care about at all, takes care of people, and generally sacrifices and subjugates their own ideas, desires and emotional states in order to fight back against these terrible feelings of shame/defectiveness. doing good things for people should normally happen when you're in a good mood/if you really like the person. for example i wouldn't mind buying a gift for a girl i really liked, because she puts me in a good mood. i wouldn't, however, buy a gift for someone who didn't mean that much to me.
the compulsion to be good is only bad because it completely subjugates your real feelings about situations. you wind up doing some crap that you don't actually want to do all the time, and while people might dig it and think you're a real nice person, you're actually screwing yourself over. it's better to take care of yourself, be yourself, and let the people that surround you like you for who you are, not for how nice or self-sacrificing you are. you SACRIFICE your self and your health for these other people. you can get along perfectly well with others without these goodist compulsions, and you will in fact find you are a lot happier without them, thus making you actually more fun to be around.
or so i've found.
i see these personality characteristics in other people i interact with, and now it really weirds me out. deep down i know that they're only doing this because they feel god awful about themselves all the time and it isn't genuine kindness, just a coping mechanism of sorts. it kind of creeps me out nowadays. it's like "why are you being so nice to me... i was having just as much fun with you when you weren't. just be yourself."
Author of tms-recovery.com
A collection of articles on emotions, lifestyle changes, and TMS theory. |
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AmyAJJ
98 Posts |
Posted - 05/09/2008 : 08:53:55
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One of the ways I've worked with this is not that I stop doing nice things for others completely, but that I START doing more nice things for myself.
Basic self-care things that may have been the things I would neglect for myself so that I could take care or pay attention to someone else.
Have you heard of that Steven Covey story about putting all the "big rocks" in the jar first, before you start putting in the pebbles, sand, etc? If you don't get the big rocks in first, you won't ever fit all the rest of the stuff in. But if you put the big rocks in first, the other smaller stuff can fit in around nicely and fill the jar.
WE need to find ourselves as the big rocks in our lives. We don't have to ignore or neglect others. We just need to start taking care of ourselves a bit more. Then when we're cared for, we'll be able to continue to help others but in more healthy ways because we'll already be nurtured and cared for.
So it's not that if you're not a goodist, you're automatically what you're seeing as the opposite - a bad person. What I'd suggest is that you just start doing some nice things for yourself and build on those over time. Again, it's not that you ignore others, but you start putting yourself back into the equation. This has been a HUGE for me as I do this. |
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armchairlinguist
USA
1397 Posts |
Posted - 05/09/2008 : 09:31:03
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quote:
generally sacrifices and subjugates their own ideas, desires and emotional states in order to fight back against these terrible feelings of shame/defectiveness.
Scott, this is such an accurate and insightful description. It's the sacrificing and the pushing away of one's own emotional states that's the mark of a goodist and the unhealthy part.
I find that the difference is that, not being as much of a goodist, I can do nice things for people out of authentic joy at doing them, a real desire on my part to share the joy I have and see. I don't feel so obliged, and I don't feel so bad if I need to say no or not do something, because I do so out of a sense that I'm taking care of myself, protecting my resources so that I can continue being joyful for myself and others.
It's a question of boundaries and respecting yourself as well as others. If you really want to do something nice, you do it; if you really don't, you don't.
In a relationship, a goodist will tend to go along with what the other person wants, and not ask for the things they want and need. My own experience has been that this is NOT a healthy way to relate and can eventually destroy a relationship because of the resentment and unfulfilled needs it creates under the goodist surface. A relationship is more healthy and real when both people's needs and wants are considered and respected. It might seem 'good' to store all your anger away and never mention it, but it isn't truly good in the end. Goodism is kind of a sham goodness, one that creates more pain down the line than it avoids right now.
As another example, say you're a volunteer for an organization (as many people are). Most volunteer orgs are understaffed and need all the help they can get, but the volunteers are busy people with lives. The goodist behavior is to do whatever they ask you to, at the expense of your life, because you can't say no because you SHOULD help them. Or to feel terrible (ashamed) if you do say no because you should but you aren't. The good person's behavior is to figure out how much you want to give, how much you can give, and stick to that, and feel comfortable and free to say no to anything else. You're still helping out and being a good person, but you're not running yourself ragged in the process, and you're not feeling obligations to do more than you really can.
It's obviously a continuum. It would be entirely disingenuous of me to pretend that I never feel bad about saying no, or that I always succeed in saying no when I wish I had! Or that I'm always honest about what I do and don't want and need in relationships (that's actually the harder one). But I'm making progress and I'm finding that while being a goodist is exhausting and drains the joy out of life (much like being a perfectionist, which is for me the more difficult one to change), being a good person is comfortable and pleasant and even joyful.
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It's not 100% belief that's required, but 100% commitment. |
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positivevibes
204 Posts |
Posted - 05/09/2008 : 12:07:06
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This is turning into a very interesting thread! Since Mother's Day is coming up, I'll add a few comments:
I think that being a mother (or even a father) automatically sets you up for goodist behavior. You're expected to take care of your family. You're expected to sacrifice yourself to some extent.
Parents are always trying to balance sacrificing their own needs with desires and needs of their family. As a mother, you're expected to take care of everybody. Often that means that you don't wind up taking care of yourself.
As a stay-at-home Mom, I've found that the school system can be a huge drain if you have a goodist nature. They are always underfunded and understaffed, and they are constantly asking and demanding things of you. When my kids were in pre-school I did a lot of volunteering but after a few years, I found myself feeling burned-out and resentful. I realized that I really didn't LIKE volunteering at school. But my kids were little and it made them happy to see me in the middle of the day, so I did it for them.
When my kids entered elementary school, I still volunteered for a few things but scaled it back, saying No to some things. Then as the years went on, I found myself saying No to many more things. It was a huge relief, but at the same time I felt terribly guilty about it.
Around that time, I started a business that I ran at home, so even though I was home, I was busy with work. Other moms spend a LOT of time at school because they don't have jobs. I found myself constantly explaining to them that I was very busy, even though I was home. I felt very uncomfortable about it, because I don't think many of them truly understood. It took years for me to be able to say, "I don't care what they think. I have a business to run. Somebody else can drive on the field trip." And it took a long time to get over the guilt that I was disappointing my kids by not being "the mom who is always doing stuff at school like the other moms."
I guess that on some level I have always fought my goodist nature, even when I didn't know that that was what I was doing. But when you become a parent, nobody tells you how much GUILT will go along with it, or how to cope with that guilt. There are all sorts of Oprah-like articles with cute suggestions about giving yourself some "me time." But that's not the point. It isn't about finding an hour to go to the spa. It's about setting your mental priorities and not losing yourself on a daily basis-- feeling comfortable saying No to your family and your community when appropriate. There's no guidbook for that. And people like Martha Stewart, who set impossible standards, make it even worse IMO. (i.e., being A Stepford Wife).
I've come to realize that my kids will respect me more if I show them that I value my own interests and take care of my own needs, instead of being a totally self-sacrificing person who lives for (and through) my children. Nevertheless, I'm constantly conflicted between meeting my own needs and meeting my family's needs. |
Edited by - positivevibes on 05/09/2008 12:20:07 |
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scottjmurray
266 Posts |
Posted - 05/09/2008 : 12:32:07
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quote:
I find that the difference is that, not being as much of a goodist, I can do nice things for people out of authentic joy at doing them, a real desire on my part to share the joy I have and see.
exactly, when you're in a good mood because your needs and desires are being heard and met you are more inclined to be helpful and kind to others.
as far as being a parent goes, i'm not there yet. i know now that i need to have a damn good lock on my problems and how to balance them out before i even think of entering that arena. my father is a good example of someone who was "ready" to be a parent. my dad's basically the most relaxed, happy man on the planet. my mom, however, wasn't.
you need a lot of self-love and harmony inside yourself to raise little ones.
Author of tms-recovery.com
A collection of articles on emotions, lifestyle changes, and TMS theory. |
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campbell28
80 Posts |
Posted - 05/09/2008 : 12:33:08
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What I've realised about goodism is that previously, I have tended either to give too much, or just run away and not do anything. I have not been able to say "this is not how I want to do things - I would like to change the way this works".
Rather, i have just either gone along with something completely (frequently feeling very resentful inside about it) or ducked out altogether rather than have to say something ' negative' about what was going on.
But everything is not black and white like that.
like what you say about relationships armchair - I completely agree with that. I have in the past not felt able to express my real feelings about the relationship and in consequence have just had to walk away (well, actually, just left it and left it until they walked away...)- better not to have to deal with it at all than ever have to say anything unpleasant.
it isn't healthy at all. And it isn't even really 'good' or 'nice': its weak and dishonest (or this is how i see myself if im in hypercritical mode).
so now im working on speaking out rather than running away. and trying to really prove to myself that even if I show anger to my friends they won't hate me or ditch me: that its safe to do that. |
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scottjmurray
266 Posts |
Posted - 05/09/2008 : 12:36:07
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another interesting thing i thought of is that i become naturally inclined to care for someone if they are emotionally expressive of their problems, and far less inclined if i can tell they're stuffing it all away. when someone is crying i naturally want to comfort them and it isn't goodist at all. something about the energy they're putting out flips some circuitry in my brain and i go into this "caring" mode. so, i don't really find it a burden to care for someone when they really need it, because it actually feels good to me.
what i don't like to do, however, is deal with people who can't emote their problems. it's frustrating and exhausting, which is why i could never be a tms therapist. lol. i need to see that real, human dynamic.
another thing that freaks me out is road rage. because i know they're not really mad at cars.
Author of tms-recovery.com
A collection of articles on emotions, lifestyle changes, and TMS theory. |
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armchairlinguist
USA
1397 Posts |
Posted - 05/09/2008 : 12:50:07
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quote:
And it took a long time to get over the guilt that I was disappointing my kids by not being "the mom who is always doing stuff at school like the other moms."
PV, just from my experience as a kid, I think they may well have been
fine with it. My parents both had full-time jobs when I was a kid, and I knew some other parents that always were at the school and helping out. I don't know if I came up with this on my own or this is how my parents explained it, but I figured, for those parents they don't have another job, but they make this part of their job, it's their work in the community. So I always saw it as they have one job, my parents have another. (My dad was also on the school board but I didn't really see that because the board has such an invisible role from a kid's perspective.) I didn't mind one way or the other. My mom especially isn't really a "room mother" kind of person anyway, so it is good she did what she really wanted instead of suffering through that stuff for our sakes. Later in my life she volunteered in the library when my brother was in high school and I did think that was cool. That was after she stopped working FT.
campbell -- I hope you don't spend too much time thinking you are being weak and dishonest when you are goodist. It just sounds so negative to me, and I can tell you I definitely don't think of you that way! :) The most important to recognize is that it doesn't work to get you what you want and need, and it doesn't really help the other person either in the long run, because you'll get burned out and they won't benefit as they otherwise would. I've had to create a lot of mantras (much like the Sarno mantras about pain, really!) to help me get out of the goodist thinking. Some I still am struggling with. It's how we learned to do things and it's a pattern that's hard to get out of.
I like how you described the difference between the black and white, take it or leave it, and the shades of gray where you can negotiate by putting out your thoughts and desires and see if you can get something better.
It's always a balance!
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It's not 100% belief that's required, but 100% commitment. |
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AmyAJJ
98 Posts |
Posted - 05/09/2008 : 16:32:45
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| Check out Non-Violent Communication by Marshall Rosenberg to learn more about needs and getting them met. I love this resource. |
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RageSootheRatio
Canada
430 Posts |
Posted - 05/09/2008 : 21:03:03
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For those interested, one of the best on-line resources for Marshall Rosenberg's Non-Violent Communication model (NVC) that I have found, is an (mp3) interview with him, complete with actors who do some role-playing to provide examples. Parts of it are very funny and there are examples from babies, through teens, corporate executives, professionals, warring African tribes, couples, the whole gamut! The url, with transcript highlights is:
http://www.goodradioshows.org/peaceTalksL36.html |
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carbar
USA
227 Posts |
Posted - 05/09/2008 : 23:49:57
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Agreed, Non-Violent Communication has been really integral to my recovery from TMS and realizing how to work with the emotions I was previously repressing!
What's tricky for me is that I am quite accustom to the goodist stance or the non-emotional reaction to something. It can still take me a little while to sort out what I'm actually feeling about a situation.
For me, the goodist inovolves the little voice that says, "you should" or comes up with "not good enough" judgements. |
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Scottydog
United Kingdom
330 Posts |
Posted - 05/12/2008 : 17:20:34
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An epipheneal (?sp) moment for me was when I realised that I was being 'good' in the hope of making people like me and impresseing those around me with my generous nature??!! I didn't truly care for the people I helped - or I did, but not to the extent that I was putting myself out to.
I'm not much good at empahising and am so good at repressing emotions that I doubt it came over as genuine anyway!
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campbell28
80 Posts |
Posted - 05/15/2008 : 14:54:22
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thanks armchair - i don't think like that all the time, just when I get frustrated with myself for not breaking through what i know are self-created barriers.
I am getting better at communicating to people though. I managed last weekend to explain to a friend how I feel when she puts herself down (which is quite a lot): saying she feels fat or unattractive, which is an unspoken way of asking for reassurance that she isn't. I then feel that I am personally responsible for making her see that she isn't and it drives me nuts because I feel I'm having to say the same thing over and over and she doesn't listen or take it in, and it doesn't really help.
this is something i would not have thought to actually put into words before: I have just put up with it and got resentful and thought how self-obssessed she is. but I realised that my reaction to that is actually at least half about me: the fact that I take on what she says as a responsibility, and feel pressured to help her.
so i talked about it and it took a while to get across what I meant but in the end she understood, and I understood more about why she does it, and it was better. I am really trying, instead of letting lots of little things get to me but ignoring them because I want everything to be 'nice' until it builds up into massive resentment, to deal with them as and when they happen by talking about it.
but i don't find it easy and thats when I get annoyed with myself. but heigh ho, feel the fear and do it anyway... |
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armchairlinguist
USA
1397 Posts |
Posted - 05/16/2008 : 17:53:36
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Yeah, it's hard. I had a realization kind of like that recently about people being on time (or notifying me accurately about when they will be there if they are late). I don't like it when people do that, and that's how I feel (and I think much of it is normal to feel because it's very inconvenient when plans change at the last minute), but some of it definitely originates in always being one of the last kids picked up from after-school care when I was a little kid and never knowing quite when my dad would show up. Emotionally, I feel worried, confused, and abandoned, which really has not that much to do with the person who's being late, since they're usually late for innocuous reasons like traffic or getting caught having to finish something up at work.
John Lee in Facing the Fire says "Adults cannot be abandoned, except by themselves." So he says if you feel abandoned it's a sign that there is something from the past coming up. This was key in helping me figure this thing out.
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It's not 100% belief that's required, but 100% commitment. |
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Not be a goodist, but still be a good person?
