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Baseball65
USA
734 Posts |
 Posted - 06/02/2008 : 06:06:40
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My Knee didn't work right.
I am a TMS - er so I ignored it.
It persisted. I went to the doctor. They drained it.
I got 'The divided Mind' on CD and listened and re-learned and re-investigated and re-searched.
My knee got better
But during the research, I found I had been living with an invisible lie. It finally exploded...came to consciousness.... I think I can guess why my knee hurt.
The symptoms ARE protecting us.....from US!
Louise Hay has always been very helpful. Her index of symptom to soul pain in the middle of "You can heal your life" has always been a sort of TMS cheat sheet. Knee = Ego and Pride.
My Ego and Pride were inflamed.Badly....requiring immediate operation
I ended up in a doctors office , having an emotional melt down of hitherto unseen proportions.
I got separated from my wife.
I have spent weeks and weeks alone trying to sort it out......symptom free weeks, but in emotional pain...not as bad as the day I melted down (It sort of all came out like Niagara falls) but lonely none the less.
I have constructed a mythology that only I believe in. The knee was a hole in the mythology...a wake up call. Thank God for Sarno and Co.
I have found that actually DOING Louise Hay's work and not just using her as a TMS library has helped a LOT.
It got me back to prayer and looking inside. I don't need to tell you that I am finding out once again that the magic never runs out and the tree keeps on giving ala Shel Silverstein. There is Always more to learn. There aren't answers, only newer truths and truer truths and simpler truths.
I have been reading Eckhart Tolle and he is blowing my mind. He is answering questions about the resiliency of the Ego that have been baffling me for quite a while.
I got a glimpse. I remember why I liked my wife in the first place...she Isn't like me!
In fact, now that I ponder.... she's absurd! She lives on pure feel and soul...never ever lets thought and intellectualism ruin her day, like this other really smart guy I know. She drives clear thinking and reasoning guy Crazy, because she is a feeler, not a thinker.
The more I can see the Mythology I constructed, the more I see that I wasn't angry with the real her...I was angry with the her that contradicted the dogma of the myth.
I felt really lonely all of a sudden. I was the one who changed. I was the one who wouldn't let me do what I wanted to do. I am the problem (well....the me that I made, not the one God made)
TMS is really Adeodetus...the gift from God. It's a little unraveled thread in the tapestry we quietly weave over the real world. We pull on the thread and it hurts...bad.
But we keep pulling and find out that there is a whole world of beautiful,painful, joy and wonder filled life that we have been missing because of the one we fabricated unconsciously. If I didn't get the symptom, than I wouldn't have had to investigate and If I hadn't investigated, I wouldn't have had to go and get help, and if I didn't go and get help, I wouldn't have had to wake up.
Good morning!
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campbell28
80 Posts |
Posted - 06/02/2008 : 08:15:59
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TMS is really Adeodetus...the gift from God. It's a little unraveled thread in the tapestry we quietly weave over the real world. We pull on the thread and it hurts...bad.
absolutely spot on ,that almost made me cry. good luck with the unravelling. |
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Stryder
686 Posts |
Posted - 06/03/2008 : 23:53:49
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| Hang in there fellow Sarno Soldier. -Stryder |
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Wavy Soul
USA
779 Posts |
Posted - 06/04/2008 : 00:41:22
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Unraveling the thread is hard right now and I can't seem to sleep with pain in shoulder and too tired to do anything about it but can't seem to sleep..
If anyone is there please advise ;-)
xx
Love is the answer, whatever the question |
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Baseball65
USA
734 Posts |
Posted - 06/04/2008 : 08:36:29
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I think I'll start a new post on that wavy. In the meantime, sleep is very necessary to have a clear mind to deal with TMS. When we are fatigued, everything seems a little harder to do and our orientation and clarity of thought is difficult (I'm running on about 4 hours worth right now!)
You might want to try a sleeping aid...not as a 'fix' but just to get enough rest to appropriately deal with the psychological stuff.
-peace
BB65 |
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armchairlinguist
USA
1397 Posts |
Posted - 06/04/2008 : 09:25:02
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Baseball, this is both a beautiful and a sad post. I wish you all the best with what you're going through and doing the work.
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It's not 100% belief that's required, but 100% commitment. |
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scottjmurray
266 Posts |
Posted - 06/04/2008 : 13:41:29
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tear down those walls.
i'm starting to despise intellectuality myself. i'm sick of not feeling and having to think my way through everything. i'd rather be who i actually am than filled with philosophy any day. the real wisdom we have is produced inside us constantly... our emotions ...and that's what i want to listen to from now on.
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i'm not s#!t.
i'm champagne. |
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la_kevin
USA
351 Posts |
Posted - 06/04/2008 : 21:57:36
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quote:
The symptoms ARE protecting us.....from US!
What is going on in the unconscious/subconscious is greater than any horror movie you've ever seen. The rage, anxiety,fear that is inside every human is potentially a time bomb.
I remember when I had "OCD" (TMS?) I studied it at length and discovered the brain of an "OCD PERSON" alarms at smaller thoughts than most people. The brain actually is in overdrive trying to be TOO GOOD, trying to not allow thoughts through that 'hurt'. This was more prevalent in people with OBSESSIONS more than rituals or compulsions. So the anxiety comes from this alarm. Then once they are sent to therapy(like I was) they are desensitized to the thoughts so the brain doesn't alarm anymore. It works.
I think TMS is on the same line, I think there is a link. Maybe our alarm is more sensitive. I think that extra 'rage' may be there too, but I am convinced that Sarno is not giving ANXIETY it's proper role. I think that TMS is an anxiety driven machine, even more than 'rage'.
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"Over thinking...over analyzing...separates the body from the mind." Maynard from the band TOOL |
Edited by - la_kevin on 06/04/2008 22:01:17 |
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positivevibes
204 Posts |
Posted - 06/05/2008 : 03:04:45
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Wow, I'm sorry to hear that you separated from your wife. That must be really difficult. But you have made such an important realization about yourself and your relationship with her!!
Eckhart Tolle is blowing my mind as well. It's an incredible book.
Just remember, the myth you created about yourself is like paper mache'. You can tear it down. It may be really difficult and scary at times because you have come identify with it so closely, but the REAL YOU is not the mythology.
I keep thinking of the Matrix films, where Morpheus says to Neo "welcome to the real world." The "self" we make for ourselves is sorta like the Matrix -- a false world, a false belief about who and what you really are, because it's easier than dealing with the truth.
I haven't heard of Louise Hay. I am going to look her up.
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Edited by - positivevibes on 06/05/2008 03:06:47 |
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hottm8oh
USA
141 Posts |
Posted - 06/05/2008 : 08:43:05
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quote:
I think TMS is on the same line, I think there is a link. Maybe our alarm is more sensitive. I think that extra 'rage' may be there too, but I am convinced that Sarno is not giving ANXIETY it's proper role. I think that TMS is an anxiety driven machine, even more than 'rage'.
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"Over thinking...over analyzing...separates the body from the mind." Maynard from the band TOOL
My pain is constant. It will get better or worse, but I always feel it. It is not situational the way it is in some people. Because of this and because of some of my personality traits, I believe my TMS could be a result of generalized anxiety disorder. I need to address this with a mental health professional to be sure, but I think you are correct that anxiety is a big piece of the puzzle.
BTW, I enjoy your Tool quote. They are a very underrated band. |
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Dave
USA
1864 Posts |
Posted - 06/05/2008 : 09:45:10
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quote:
Originally posted by hottm8oh
...I believe my TMS could be a result of generalized anxiety disorder. I need to address this with a mental health professional to be sure, but I think you are correct that anxiety is a big piece of the puzzle.
You've barely scratched the surface of TMS and already your confusing yourself with alternate theories.
This is, unfortunately, part of the vicious cycle for some.
Please read Dr. Sarno's books for his view of how anxiety fits with TMS theory. If you do not agree with it, that's your perrogative, but then a statement such as "TMS could be a result of generalized anxiety disorder" is meaningless.
Dr. Sarno makes it very clear that anxiety is a symptom and should be treated the same as the pain: ignore it. There are some here who believe that anxiety should be viewed differently in the context of TMS. It is the classic chicken-and-egg scenario, and frankly, it doesn't matter.
Getting caught up with analysis only serves as a distraction itself. Keep it simple. Read the book, follow the treatment suggestions. Consult a mental health professional if you wish (keeping in mind that Dr. Sarno will prescribe psychoanalysis for his patients). However, beware of the traps. Recovery requires commitment. If you allow doubt to creep in, it will undermine the treatment. |
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mk6283
USA
272 Posts |
Posted - 06/05/2008 : 10:25:13
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I think the problem here is that the word "anxiety" is a bit ambiguous. I think it can be BOTH a cause of TMS and a TMS equivalent in its own right. If one refers to anxiety as an all encompassing term for certain fears, worries, stresses, etc., that we may have both consciously and unconsciously, well then sure that could feed the cycle of symptom production, leading to TMS or one of its equivalents. At the same time, the word anxiety can also be used to refer to SPECIFIC psychiatric anxiety disorders, such as GAD, that carry their own set of symptoms and manifestations (too numerous to mention) that form the diagnostic criteria for the various entities. These patients often tend to feel anxious, panicky, compulsive, depersonalized, etc., without even knowing why! In that case, the anxiety disorder is most certainly a TMS equivalent. Its not always so black and white.
On a separate note, Baseball65, your post was a true joy to read. I wish you all the best in your recovery!
Best,
MK |
Edited by - mk6283 on 06/05/2008 10:32:34 |
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hottm8oh
USA
141 Posts |
Posted - 06/05/2008 : 10:36:27
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quote:
Originally posted by Dave
quote:
Originally posted by hottm8oh
...I believe my TMS could be a result of generalized anxiety disorder. I need to address this with a mental health professional to be sure, but I think you are correct that anxiety is a big piece of the puzzle.
You've barely scratched the surface of TMS and already your confusing yourself with alternate theories.
This is, unfortunately, part of the vicious cycle for some.
Please read Dr. Sarno's books for his view of how anxiety fits with TMS theory. If you do not agree with it, that's your perrogative, but then a statement such as "TMS could be a result of generalized anxiety disorder" is meaningless.
Dr. Sarno makes it very clear that anxiety is a symptom and should be treated the same as the pain: ignore it. There are some here who believe that anxiety should be viewed differently in the context of TMS. It is the classic chicken-and-egg scenario, and frankly, it doesn't matter.
Getting caught up with analysis only serves as a distraction itself. Keep it simple. Read the book, follow the treatment suggestions. Consult a mental health professional if you wish (keeping in mind that Dr. Sarno will prescribe psychoanalysis for his patients). However, beware of the traps. Recovery requires commitment. If you allow doubt to creep in, it will undermine the treatment.
I don't consider questioning the source of my pain to be allowing doubts to creep in. I'm confused as to why you think associating anxiety with TMS is counter productive. Muscle tension is a symptom of Generalized Anxiety Disorder. It would be foolish to not explore a connection. If I want to get rid of my muscle tension, then I need to explore the possibility that it could be GAD. Maybe it's not, but why not explore ir or rule it out? Keep in mind that most of us with TMS are pretty much on our own with this. I have yet to find a therapist who specializes in TMS, so I'm essentially self-medicating with knowledge. |
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Hillbilly
USA
385 Posts |
Posted - 06/05/2008 : 10:41:11
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quote:
I believe my TMS could be a result of generalized anxiety disorder
This is a spot-on, absolutely accurate assessment of your problem, and here is the proof.
The first link is the explanation of how the brain responds to anxiety and how the emotional part of the brain gets "stuck" as researched and explained by Charles Linden, a guy whose "method" of overcoming anxiety is popular, but which I do not endorse for many reasons, not the least of which is cost. You have to scroll down to about mid-page to see the video.
The second is a renowned TMS doc, Howard Schubiner, attempting to explain internal conflict using a Freudian approach.
www.lindemethod.com/
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ldyI7mJG2EA
When you have watched both videos, post your thoughts. Hope this helps. |
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darlin
13 Posts |
Posted - 06/05/2008 : 10:43:17
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| In reply to the previous..... since my anxiety has been under control.... I have almost no pain. Getting enough sleep...good sleep.. taking a xanax before bed has very much helped me. I do notice muscle tension, and pain when having large amounts of anxiety. They are associated for me... |
Edited by - darlin on 06/05/2008 10:46:53 |
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positivevibes
204 Posts |
Posted - 06/05/2008 : 11:51:01
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I want to point out that Dr. Schechter says that TMS can be caused by rage OR anxiety. I have found that my TMS is caused by a combination of both. Firsthand I've felt my back tense up when I'm extremely anxious (I'm talking about "over the top" extreme anxiety).
Dr. Schechter adds to Dr. Sarno's theories by saying that the mind is causing the autonomic nervous system to "misfire". This is how it feels in my body sometimes. I can literally "worry myself sick" and my body seems to react to that worry by creating a TMS situation.
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You are not your mind; you are not your thoughts. The incessant mental noise [of your thoughts] creates a false mind-made self that causes fear and suffering and prevents you from connecting with your true self and living in the Now. - Eckhart Tolle, The Power of Now |
Edited by - positivevibes on 06/05/2008 12:03:39 |
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armchairlinguist
USA
1397 Posts |
Posted - 06/05/2008 : 12:00:21
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quote:
I'm confused as to why you think associating anxiety with TMS is counter productive.
This is not what Dave said. In fact, anxiety is associated with TMS, in Dr. Sarno's theory, as an equivalent. Anxiety is another distraction from the emotional issues. Considering how effective it clearly is as a distraction (since a number of people on this board are completely focused on it or allow worrying about whether TMS or anxiety is the source of their pain to be yet another distraction), and considering my own experience with the way worrying affects me and how it ties into my emotional experience, I think this is accurate. If you disagree with it, it's fine, but it's also not terribly relevant.
The point is that in either case the pain is being generated by something occurring in the MIND, therefore the treatment is in the mind. Claire Weekes' treatment for anxiety is very much like Sarno's treatment for TMS -- float through it (i.e. ignore the distraction), stop "fear of the fear" (same as stop fear of the pain), resume normal life.
You really can't go wrong with that approach, no matter where you think the anxiety and TMS symptoms "come from".
Seriously though, I don't think that most people are giving enough credence to the idea that anxiety can originate in the same place that TMS can. They are too willing to consider it "its own thing", much in the way that people who don't believe in TMS theory consider pain "its own thing". Anxiety originates from deeper emotional conflicts, and becomes a conditioned response to certain situations. So does TMS. They come from the same source. It's a classic issue of correlation vs. causation. B doesn't cause C and C doesn't cause B, A causes both B and C. But it's quite hard to, and not always relevant to, distinguish those three situations. That's why you don't have to agree with me to agree with Sarno/Weekes's treatment suggestions!
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It's not 100% belief that's required, but 100% commitment. |
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hottm8oh
USA
141 Posts |
Posted - 06/05/2008 : 13:21:49
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quote:
Originally posted by armchairlinguist
quote:
I'm confused as to why you think associating anxiety with TMS is counter productive.
This is not what Dave said. In fact, anxiety is associated with TMS, in Dr. Sarno's theory, as an equivalent. Anxiety is another distraction from the emotional issues. Considering how effective it clearly is as a distraction (since a number of people on this board are completely focused on it or allow worrying about whether TMS or anxiety is the source of their pain to be yet another distraction), and considering my own experience with the way worrying affects me and how it ties into my emotional experience, I think this is accurate. If you disagree with it, it's fine, but it's also not terribly relevant.
The point is that in either case the pain is being generated by something occurring in the MIND, therefore the treatment is in the mind. Claire Weekes' treatment for anxiety is very much like Sarno's treatment for TMS -- float through it (i.e. ignore the distraction), stop "fear of the fear" (same as stop fear of the pain), resume normal life.
You really can't go wrong with that approach, no matter where you think the anxiety and TMS symptoms "come from".
Seriously though, I don't think that most people are giving enough credence to the idea that anxiety can originate in the same place that TMS can. They are too willing to consider it "its own thing", much in the way that people who don't believe in TMS theory consider pain "its own thing". Anxiety originates from deeper emotional conflicts, and becomes a conditioned response to certain situations. So does TMS. They come from the same source. It's a classic issue of correlation vs. causation. B doesn't cause C and C doesn't cause B, A causes both B and C. But it's quite hard to, and not always relevant to, distinguish those three situations. That's why you don't have to agree with me to agree with Sarno/Weekes's treatment suggestions!
--
It's not 100% belief that's required, but 100% commitment.
I was looking at it from the viewpoint that you would treat anxiety differently than you would treat anger or fear or worry, so it was important to know the source of the TMS pain, but as it has been pointed out to me several times already, I may be overthinking it. |
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Hillbilly
USA
385 Posts |
Posted - 06/05/2008 : 13:32:44
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quote:
Seriously though, I don't think that most people are giving enough credence to the idea that anxiety can originate in the same place that TMS can.
How can the above make sense when "TMS" label can mean so many different things, including anxiety conditions? To say that anxiety comes from the same place as anxiety is tautological. Clinging to this reasoning requires that the two are separate entities, so clarification must be given every single time the acronym TMS is used when trying to communicate with someone about this problem, as subsequent Sarno books have brought nearly every possible inorganic condition in the Merck Manual under the rubric TMS.
quote:
I want to point out that Dr. Schechter says that TMS can be caused by rage OR anxiety
And although this may be true, it is fear that keeps it going or everyone with this type of pain would be living normally. Fear is a habit. If you fear something it controls your behavior. The only tried and true way to overcome a fear is to face it and see what happens and eventually to stop caring what happens because it isn't as bad as the mental movie. |
Edited by - Hillbilly on 06/05/2008 13:48:32 |
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Dave
USA
1864 Posts |
Posted - 06/05/2008 : 13:58:37
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quote:
Originally posted by hottm8oh
I was looking at it from the viewpoint that you would treat anxiety differently than you would treat anger or fear or worry, so it was important to know the source of the TMS pain, but as it has been pointed out to me several times already, I may be overthinking it.
I believe you are. I personally find no benefit to semantic arguments such as this.
The fact is, no matter how much "proof" is offered, all we have are theories. To think that the human race has reached a point where we can truly understand the complexities of how the brain works would be presumptuous and arrogant.
Dr. Sarno has formulated a theory based on decades of clinical experience treating real patients, with thousands of success stories. Whether the finer details of his theory are accurate is irrelevant.
The treatment works primarily because we are able to accept that the pain is benign, and recondition ourselves to think about and react differently to it. If the anxiety is considered a symptom, the treatment involves ignoring or 'floating through' it, diffusing the poisonous thoughts and calming the mind. This is not fundamentally different than any 'standard' treatment for generalized anxiety disorder.
So, you can spend time and energy to question and debate scientific details, which in and of itself is a distraction, or you can accept that the pain/anxiety/whatever is psychogenic and do the work required to get better. Ultimately, the underlying source is emotional and you can't think your way out of it. You must accept what is happening in your mindbody and explore the psychological issues that cause it. |
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armchairlinguist
USA
1397 Posts |
Posted - 06/05/2008 : 15:28:32
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quote:
when "TMS" label can mean so many different things, including anxiety conditions
It appears you still are not paying attention to what Sarno actually says. We may be so careless as to use TMS to refer to a lot of different conditions, but Dr. Sarno only uses it to refer to psychogenic pain conditions (some of which have associated numbness/tingling).
The other conditions are TMS equivalents. An anxiety condition is not TMS. It is an equivalent condition, i.e. a different syndrome with the same cause. This label is also given by Sarno to some other conditions. People who have any of these conditions can use the Sarno approach to treat them, since they are equivalent. Many people who have TMS pain also have issues with anxiety, and don't see any sense in referring these people to separate treatments for anxiety or believing that their anxiety is somehow separate from or a cause of their TMS. I, like Sarno, believe A (repressed emotions) causes both B and C (TMS and anxiety). Treating anxiety directly by most methods is like treating pain directly -- it's treating the symptom, not its cause.
It's not really clear to me anymore what you believe, but since you insist on disregarding things clearly stated by Sarno, it's kind of hard to find out.
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It's not 100% belief that's required, but 100% commitment. |
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Wake up call
