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MRosenthal
USA
30 Posts |
 Posted - 12/29/2004 : 06:52:44
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| I think that unfortunately I have been told so much about herniated disk symptoms that it is hard to believe that none of this is at all physical. I get sciatica and then out of socket type pain in my low back and leg. It happens after i have been up for about 10 minutes. I don't know how to break this cycle. I was even told by my physical therapist that the disk must be pushed back into position by exercises. Then it can heal although any irritation will flare it back up. Also, that the fluid inside can drip and really irritate. These are the things that make it so impossible to accept this. |
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Dave
USA
1864 Posts |
Posted - 12/29/2004 : 07:56:19
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No offense, but your physical therapist is full of crap.
There are no exercises that can "push the disk back into position."
These physical explanations are flat out wrong. Exactly how is the fluid causing irritation? Is is fluid! It is there for lubrication. Are we to believe that the fluid is touching the nerve and causing pain? Gee, our nerves are so sensitive, it's a wonder the human race survived for millions of years.
The first part of breaking the cycle is to stop seeing physical therapists, period. If you can't repudiate the physical explanation for the pain, the pain will continue. If you can't accept that the pain comes after 10 minutes solely due to conditioning, the pain will continue.
You're not at the point where you accept the TMS diagnosis. You cannot make any progress until you get to that first step. |
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Susie
USA
319 Posts |
Posted - 12/29/2004 : 07:57:31
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| When you really get Sarno,it will be hard for you to believe the balony your physical therapist has spewed. Most of us have been handed horrible prognosis and descriptions of our situation. Most of us have got past it with a leap of faith. You have nothing to lose and you will not cripple yourself by leaking fluid or sliding disks or any other physiological abnormality. Do you know one person who has crippled themself by moving around? You will just get better. As long as you let yourself hang on to the fear your therapist has implanted, tms will win everytime. You are obsessing and letting your fear run the show. This is very common, but I promise that you must get past it to improve. Your therapist is feeding your fear. |
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Baseball65
USA
734 Posts |
Posted - 12/29/2004 : 08:19:18
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Hi M.
I ate like a PIG this Holiday season...OOOhhhhhYYYYYYeah!!...I can barely fit into my pants.
I demolished whole gingerbread condominiums in one sitting...well..the boys and I,but I eat faster.
I do that...I get a spare 10-15 every winter and I lose it every spring.....They say it's bad for your health...OH well>>>.....I love gingergread houses!
That's really a cute little story about excercise pushing the disc back into place....the only problem with it was in the worst of my symptoms,I was told the same thing.....and I was in the best shape of my life!!
I now weigh.hhhhmmm..... how much did I eat last night?...190?
I should probably weigh about 170-175
When My back went "out" I weighed 158 lbs and trained like a fighter every single day....300 pushups,500 sit-ups and THaN I'd hit the weights,machines,run,etc.
When I was in physical therapy ,I could push the max load on every single machine in the joint(except the calf-pull....atrophy had set in over the 18 months).....I am the strongest ,un-healthiest SOB you'll ever meet.
If excercising and being in the right shape held discs in place,I never would have had any pain,and I wouldn't be here to talk to you about it.
You must follow the rationale of their (whoever told you that story) logic all the way through...the implication is that you are fragile and you're going to spend your life in pain.
Also implied is that evolution has hit a backwater eddy,and that we have somehow de-evolved.......or if you are of the religious persuasion....that God designed you to be in pain.
Sarno offers you a life of freedom from that pain,as well as all that wasted energy into being careful.
You'll never get to sit around and eat like a pig again!
I was told all the mythology for 2 years...maybe you've been in the system longer.
I sense you are really resistant to exploring emotional things....I'll read one of your posts and it will seem like your making progress,and then WHAM...you'll be back here posting the same old Grimm's fairy tales again.....have you been talking to someone?
The world will ALWAYS confirm the structural myth.....if you keep going there for answers,you will end up on a surgeons gurney.
I know you must be in a lot of pain to be expending this kind of effort....but how much effort have you put in to exploring the emotional depths of your being?
I really hope you get this....
peace
Baseball65 |
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tennis tom
USA
4749 Posts |
Posted - 12/29/2004 : 09:59:01
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JOB SECURITY FOR PHYSICAL THREAPISTS: 
quote:
Originally posted by MRosenthal
I think that unfortunately I have been told so much about herniated disk symptoms that it is hard to believe that none of this is at all physical. I get sciatica and then out of socket type pain in my low back and leg. It happens after i have been up for about 10 minutes. I don't know how to break this cycle. I was even told by my physical therapist that the disk must be pushed back into position by exercises. Then it can heal although any irritation will flare it back up. Also, that the fluid inside can drip and really irritate. These are the things that make it so impossible to accept this.
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Albert
USA
210 Posts |
Posted - 12/29/2004 : 11:18:46
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A physical therapist told me to do an exercise where I lay on my stomach and arch my back, in order to push discs back into their proper place. Afterwards, I shouldn't do something such as sitting on a soft couch because doing so might cause the discs to move out again.
Talk about living on a razor's edge. Who can live that way.
I just started to read about Sarno's thoughts this past Sunday, and now find it ridiculous to do the exercises the physical therapist has prescribed to me. How are they going to help pain that keeps moving around to different places? It's hard to believe that I actually have a physical abnormality in every place I feel pain.
I have a doctor's appointment today that I've been anxiously waiting for, but not anymore. I'll listen to what he has to say, but it will be hard to take seriously. I will see if he can give a good explanation as to why my pain moves around so much. |
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tennis tom
USA
4749 Posts |
Posted - 12/29/2004 : 11:33:59
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Albert, that's a good attitude to have.  |
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polly
127 Posts |
Posted - 12/29/2004 : 19:50:55
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MR
I have a feeling that you keep going round and round because you still don't accept the basic principle. There is nothing physically wrong with you. You have TMS.
The bulging disc stuff is the easiest to dispell. Our bodies start herniating discs in our 20's. If you took 100 MRI's of people you would find an enormous # with herniated discs. Most of them never have any symptoms. Who ever even heard of half of this nonsense diagnosis 30 yrs. ago? chronic fatique, fibromyalgia, epstein barr, RSI, and on and on and on. There is billions being spent on this. The only money you can spend on TMS is the book. I know so many people with all these nonsense "diseases". None of them ever get better. Back surgery has the highest failure rate. Read the archives here. Lot's of people are all better by doing what they have to do to reach the emotional point that let's you release the pain.
If as you say it is "impossible to accept this", than maybe it is for you. Maybe we're all wrong and your physical therapist is right. The only thing is, your physical therapist gets paid to keep you thinking the way you are. No one here gains anything. You getting better or not doesn't affect how anyone else here is doing. Think about it.
Polly |
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tennis tom
USA
4749 Posts |
Posted - 12/29/2004 : 20:06:21
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Well said Polly, Happy New Year. I hope and feel that your knees will be back to normal this coming year. Please keep us updated on how it goes.
Best wishes,
tt |
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polly
127 Posts |
Posted - 12/30/2004 : 09:26:04
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Happy New Year to you too Tom, and everyone. I can't wait for this year to be over. I need a new one to sink my teeth into!
I'm learning to deal with the knees, The rest I am working on and overcoming. Being on this board has really helped. All that kindered spirit stuff works for me. I'll know what I'm going to do about the knee breakage on the 7th. I'm hoping it won't be a big problem. There are plenty of doctors who will tell me to do the whole replacement again, even though there's a very high incidence of problems with that. But, that's what they make the bucks on.
Thanks for asking. Hope your game is great, your gait is good and your pain not there.
Polly |
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Albert
USA
210 Posts |
Posted - 12/30/2004 : 10:05:26
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An odd coincidence or destiny? I missed the doctor's appointment I wrote about below, because it was scheduled for 11:30 and for some reason I had 2:30 in my mind. I was relieved to miss it. As I went to it I kept wondering what's the point?
Additionally, I had a physical therapy appointment at 5:00, but it got cancelled, because the physical therapist I'm working with had to go home sick. He's also out today. He has a history of back problems (ironic). I wonder if that has anything to do with his being out. I told him a little about Sarno's book. I plan to see him again, so I can give him a copy. Maybe it will help him with his problems. Right now he has a posture, exercise the body is responsible approach.
quote:
Originally posted by Albert
A physical therapist told me to do an exercise where I lay on my stomach and arch my back, in order to push discs back into their proper place. Afterwards, I shouldn't do something such as sitting on a soft couch because doing so might cause the discs to move out again.
Talk about living on a razor's edge. Who can live that way.
I just started to read about Sarno's thoughts this past Sunday, and now find it ridiculous to do the exercises the physical therapist has prescribed to me. How are they going to help pain that keeps moving around to different places? It's hard to believe that I actually have a physical abnormality in every place I feel pain.
I have a doctor's appointment today that I've been anxiously waiting for, but not anymore. I'll listen to what he has to say, but it will be hard to take seriously. I will see if he can give a good explanation as to why my pain moves around so much.
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Logan
USA
203 Posts |
Posted - 12/30/2004 : 10:52:56
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Albert, you know some people believe there are no such things as "accidents." I would take these missed appointments as signs, whether they are accidents or not.
I can tell you, as can many people on this board, that physical therapy is a waste of time and money (unless you are rehabilitating a real physical injury like a broken leg or are recovering from a stroke).
I realize Dr. Sarno recommends seeing a physician to rule out physical causes before implementing his program, but I would be cautious about what kind of doctor you see. If you think you would feel better seing a doctor to rule out cancer etc., do, but be selective. I know HMOs don't offer you a lot of options but if possible, seek out a doctor who is at least receptive to the mindbody connection. |
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Albert
USA
210 Posts |
Posted - 12/30/2004 : 12:11:15
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I first saw a doctor who looked at xrays and MRI photos. He found just two things wrong. A disc that has a little tear (going by the MRI photo it isn't pressing on a nerve), and my spine is straighter than usual. He saw that my hamstrings are really tight and wrote out a prescription for physical therapy. He never said what's causing me pain. The doctor I first saw works with surgical patients only. He transferred me to a doctor in his office who works with physical therapy patients (the doctor I missed an appointment with). It's a good thing none of my discs were bulging, because the surgical doctor might have prescribed surgery. Even though I have much trepidation about fusion surgeries, I was so desparate about my pain and the state of my life, I might have conceded. Or flown to Europe (long airplane flight, ouch) to see about artificial disc replacement.
But then I saw Dr. Sarno's book on a book store shelf and bought it without really expecting it to influence me. Now I'm fanatical about trying to absorb what it talks about so I can get rid of my pain and get my life back.
quote:
Originally posted by Logan
Albert, you know some people believe there are no such things as "accidents." I would take these missed appointments as signs, whether they are accidents or not.
I can tell you, as can many people on this board, that physical therapy is a waste of time and money (unless you are rehabilitating a real physical injury like a broken leg or are recovering from a stroke).
I realize Dr. Sarno recommends seeing a physician to rule out physical causes before implementing his program, but I would be cautious about what kind of doctor you see. If you think you would feel better seing a doctor to rule out cancer etc., do, but be selective. I know HMOs don't offer you a lot of options but if possible, seek out a doctor who is at least receptive to the mindbody connection.
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FarmerEd
USA
40 Posts |
Posted - 12/30/2004 : 16:41:39
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Hello MR
In a nutshell you are standing at a crossroads. On the one hand you have the medical community telling you this is totally a physical problem. Your back has been damaged and you must be extremely careful or you could do further injury. You must watch the way you walk, stand, sit, lift and lay down. Possibly for the rest of your life you will have to watch your posture, do special exercises and lead a resticted life physically.
On the other hand you have Dr. Sarno and members on this board telling you that you have a psychological problem. There is nothing physically wrong with your back structurally. The pain is real, but it originates from rage in your unconscious mind. Your back is strong and it is very difficult to damage it. In fact it usually takes a very traumatic event like a severe car wreck to do permanent damage. Slipped and bulging disks are normal and do not cause pain.
These 2 sets of information are totally incompatible and that is the problem that has you at the crossroads. If you truly believe the medical community then following Sarno's methods would be a very foolish choice. If you choose to believe Sarno then the methods employed by the medical community look quite silly. If you try to incorporate some of each you wind up opposing both, so here you sit.
I have a strong conviction that a person's actions will bear out what they truly believe deep down inside. No matter what words come out of there mouth, their actions will show what they truly believe. If you say you believe Sarno but still use all the exercises, special pillows, physical therapy, etc, I think your words don't match your actions and I conclude you don't believe Sarno.
I can't tell you what to do. All I can tell you is that believing in Sarno's theory and acting on it changed my life. I was a basket case for 3 years. I was told I had to be careful how I stood, sat etc, or I could wind up paralyzed. After putting up with the misery 3 years, I choose to believe Sarno. It was difficult and somewhat painful at first, with setbacks along the way, but I always went back to doing things that repudiated the thought there was something physically wrong with my back.
That was over 2 years ago and as I write this I have just come in from hand splitting wood, putting out over a half ton of mulch and hand spreading fertilizer on 2 acres of pasture and this is a normal work day. Am I tired and have some sore muscles? YES! Do I have the terror and paralyzing pain like with TMS? NO!
Good Luck. |
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tennis tom
USA
4749 Posts |
Posted - 12/30/2004 : 17:41:39
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Dear FarmerEd,
Thank you for the exellent post. You pictured the crossroads for a neophyte to TMS very well. Your post reminded me of what a transformation reading Dr. Sarno's books made in my life.
Happy New Year,
tt |
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FarmerEd
USA
40 Posts |
Posted - 12/30/2004 : 19:49:11
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Thanks TT,
I've noticed that folks that seem to have a hard time in recovery from TMS using Sarno's methods are often those who still cling to a partial belief that something is physically wrong with their back. They seem to have one foot in the medical community camp and one in Sarno's camp. I call them "middle of the roaders", not totally committed to one side of the road or the other, but if you think about it the middle of the road is the worst and most dangerous place to walk on a highway. I think your better off to choose a side and go with it. If you choose the medical community explaination go whole hog that way or vise versa.
I was watching the 20/20 tape about Sarno (Thanks Pault!) and I saw something very interesting. A man on it had suffered a long time with back pain and even had 1 surgery. He went to Sarno and the lectures, decided Sarno was correct and strapped on a set of roller blades and went roller blading. He said the pain started and he just kept roller blading till it quit and he just got better from there. I just gotta admire someone with that kinda faith. It took me a while longer than that, but I also noticed that the more I persisted in doing activities that denied a physical problem with my back the better I seemed to get.
Hope you have a great New Year Too!!
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Dave
USA
1864 Posts |
Posted - 12/31/2004 : 09:43:53
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quote:
Originally posted by FarmerEd
I've noticed that folks that seem to have a hard time in recovery from TMS using Sarno's methods are often those who still cling to a partial belief that something is physically wrong with their back. They seem to have one foot in the medical community camp and one in Sarno's camp. I call them "middle of the roaders", not totally committed to one side of the road or the other, but if you think about it the middle of the road is the worst and most dangerous place to walk on a highway.
Excellent post!
The recipe for treatment is very clear:
Step 1: Repudiate the structural diagnosis
Those who cannot do step 1 simply will not get better, period.
If one is unable to break free from the "herniated disc" diagnosis, or continues to see a physical therapist or chiropractor, or believes in the TMS theory but still thinks that a part of their pain is due to a structural problem with their back, it won't work.
Think of it this way. Our unconscious mind is smarter than our conscious mind. If we can't believe something consciously, how can we expect we will believe it unconsciously? |
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Carol
91 Posts |
Posted - 12/31/2004 : 13:45:48
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Dave, thank you, thank you, thank you! For some reason your simple words resonated with me, and I finally understand why I have gotten rid of all kinds of pains and TMS equivalents, but still cannot seem to get rid of my back pain.
Although I had some bone spurring at L4 the radiologist who read my MRI said in his report that there was no significant stenosis in the spinal column or nerve passages. My helpful doctor pointed out the spurs at L4 that the radiologist had "misread", and were responsible for my back and leg pain. When I asked him about pains in the groin, pubic area, and other leg, he said it was "referred" pain. He really had nothing to offer me except for pills or acupuncture, so I took myself out of the medical system. I don't take any medication and have no physical therapy, do everything I want to do (some of it pretty strenuous), and still the pain persists. I think that deep inside I still have the image of that "pinched" L4 nerve. I will have to work hard on dispelling that image in addition to all the emotional work I am doing. I certainly do have plenty of "issues" in my life to work on!
Thanks again for the very simple and (should have been) obvious explanation!
Carol |
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JosephB
25 Posts |
Posted - 01/02/2005 : 03:00:42
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To MRosenthal - The most obvious answer to your typical "physical dilemma" has already been replied by and posted by Dave, tennis tom, and Farmer Ed in their most recent responses. Please review those excellent postings!
I especially like Farmer Ed's remark, "standing at a crossroads with 2 sets of incompatible information before you". I need to repeat to you my previous response to seanf's post on 8/2/04, whereby he looked for suggestions or encouragements for a situation very similar to yours.
I especially like the title of your post, "Repudiating The Structural". It reminds me of my experience about five years ago, when I first learned about Dr. Sarno's theories and read and reread his three books, MOBP, HBP and MBP, many times. I had been going to a chiropractor for spinal adjustments for about 25 years (yes, 25 years) for sinus headaches, lower back pain, sciatica, and coccydinia. Also, for multiple sclerosis, which serious details I have previously posted on this board. I must admit that the chiropractor's adjustments for those "subluxations" (which are supposedly the cause of the pain and discomfort) did me a great deal of good, but only always temporarily. After reading Dr. Sarno's books, where he has repeatedly stated that one must "repudiate the structural", I had to make a big, big decision! After 25 years, how could I possibly repudiate my chiropractor, who has helped me (but only always temporarily) throughout those years? My dear wife repeatedly advised me that I should continue to read Dr, Sarno’s books, AND ALSO, to continue visiting the chiropractor whenever necessary. I told my wife that I cannot do both, according to Dr. Sarno, and that I must "repudiate my chiropractor", which was very difficult, but which I did, fortunately. Since about five years ago, I have not visited my chiropractor, and my previous pain manifestations have essentially gone away, except for my recent traumatic experience about one year ago which brought back sciatica, which details I have also previously posted on this board.
Always remember TMS'ers, Repudiate The Structural, and Think Psychological.
May I get a response from my favorite respondents, Dave and tennis tom?
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tennis tom
USA
4749 Posts |
Posted - 01/02/2005 : 09:30:37
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Happy New Year JosephB,
Thanks for the kind words. I agree with you wholeheartedly. The faster one can accept TMS theory and stop doing the voo-doo, the quicker the healing can take place. I tried a myriad of therapies, most of which gave some short-term soothing relief. I tried chiro. and also got some temporary soothing. But I always had to come back the next week. At least I was honestly trying and my searching eventually paid off. It brought me to Sarno's books and to this board for continuing TMS boosters shots.
The proof is in the pudding. None of the other methods gave me long term relief. Dr. Sarno's books HAVE. I feel I can do anything I want to. I call that SUCCESS! I save a lot of money that had previously gone to voo-doo. I can now spend my money on positive things like buying tennis balls and travel.
I think the best thing anyone can do for the TMS "cure", is to do as you and I have, JosephB - read all of Sarno's books, word for word. Have a dictionary and a psycholgy dictionary at hand.
Best Wishes and Good Luck!
tt |
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Acceptance
