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shawnsmith
Czech Republic
2048 Posts |
 Posted - 02/06/2013 : 14:51:02
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| I am deleting my original post as I did not want this to turn into a debate. I was merely expressing an opinion. |
Edited by - shawnsmith on 02/07/2013 04:59:18 |
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pan
United Kingdom
173 Posts |
Posted - 02/06/2013 : 15:14:14
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Surely the problem is though that you cannot accept a TMS diagnosis without accepting al the 'Freudian psycho babble' that comes along with it and that is intrinsic to Sarno's thesis.
I get the impression that this is a huge issue for many people as they get embroiled in the theory of TMS and the search for that inner conflict and turmoil between the Id and Ego etc and totally fail to recognise that the signs and symptoms of stress illness and physical anxiety are happily on the surface and actually staring them in the face.
I have to say I do believe in repressed emotions and the unconscious mind but also believe that if somebody has stress in their lives and is experiencing physical symptoms then a deft little application of Ochams Razor would see me attributing those symptoms to the obvious stress that is on the surface, this is obviously after discounting an organic causality.
The human body and mind truly is a wonderful thing but I do like what Morrissey had to say on this matter:
".,,all that we hope is when we go our skin and our blood and our bones don't get in your way making you ill the way they did when we lived..."
Wake me up with your amphetamine blast
Take me by the collar and throw me out into the world
Rock me gently & send me dreaming of something tender
I was brought here to pay homage to the beat surrender
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plum
United Kingdom
641 Posts |
Posted - 02/06/2013 : 15:17:37
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Shawn,
That was a refreshingly clean and decisive post. No wishy-washy. I like that a lot. The fact that you feel better for writing it I like even more. That's the most important thing. |
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Ace1
USA
1040 Posts |
Posted - 02/06/2013 : 15:33:34
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| I agree with Shawn. I will tell you in what manner I might think the word unconscious may play a role. Lets say you first learn how to drive a car, you are aware of everything happening, but once you get used to it you can drive and not be aware, it's like automatic, so I guess one can call this unconscious. I guess habits can be unconscious (your not aware of them anymore). Another aspect where it probably applies is the talk we tell ourselves. There appears to be a part of our minds that listens to everything we say and with repeated use, different talk can either rev our minds up or calm it down. This is I believe how affirmations work. It's kind of like if you say "I can't stand doing such and such" and you say it a million times, you will get an automatic tension reaction to that situation whether you want to or not and even if you try to relax in the moment. |
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pan
United Kingdom
173 Posts |
Posted - 02/06/2013 : 16:07:05
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quote:
Originally posted by shawnsmith
quote:
Originally posted by pan
Surely the problem is though that you cannot accept a TMS diagnosis without accepting al the 'Freudian psycho babble' that comes along with it and that is intrinsic to Sarno's thesis.
I don't thinks that the Freudian model is intrinsic to Dr. Sarno's thesis as he himself is uncertain regarding what brings about recovery. Is it the psychotherapy or the knowledge he conveys that all is well and that patients can return to normal activity without any fear of harming themselves? I hold the position that it is the latter. But what holds us back is not repressed emotions but fear, which is very real and very conscious.
But if you are finding relief via your mental excavations then, as I said, I am very happy for you and congratulations are in order.
My albeit somewhat limited understanding what that the symptoms themselves (the TMS illness if you like) was an imperative act by the unconscious to divert attention from the rage of the Ego within the unconscious and to stop it fully entering the conscious. Yep, I understand the cure resides within using the knowledge of the benign nature of the syndrome to lose the fear of the symptoms but this doesn't discount Sarno's heavy emphasis on the role of the subconscious within the actual process.
Anyway, and I suppose this ties in with your point, it is rather interesting that Sarno's cure for the syndrome is pretty much the exact same cure for all somatisation, stress illness and physical anxiety disorders in that one needs to stop the monitoring of bodily sensations and 'symptoms' and lose all fear of them. Once this is done recovery will always inevitably start and until this point you are always pouring petrol on the fire and stoking the flames.
I recovered from a 5 year nightmare of health anxiety, TMS, stress illness and this was purely as a result of losing the fear but I did have to get to rock bottom before I took that leap of faith. I really do admire all those who get through this.
Wake me up with your amphetamine blast
Take me by the collar and throw me out into the world
Rock me gently & send me dreaming of something tender
I was brought here to pay homage to the beat surrender
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tennis tom
USA
4746 Posts |
Posted - 02/06/2013 : 17:52:24
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quote:
Originally posted by pan
...Yep, I understand the cure resides within using the knowledge of the benign nature of the syndrome to lose the fear of the symptoms but this doesn't discount Sarno's heavy emphasis on the role of the subconscious within the actual process.
...one needs to stop the monitoring of bodily sensations and 'symptoms' and lose all fear of them. Once this is done recovery will always inevitably start and until this point you are always pouring petrol on the fire and stoking the flames.
...but I did have to get to rock bottom before I took that leap of faith.
These are good points. My yoga teacher, Texas Chainsaw Tony, used to say his biggest problem teaching was that his students knew too much. |
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All1Spirit
USA
149 Posts |
Posted - 02/06/2013 : 18:09:44
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Whether you call it unconscious or subconscious mind there is no doubt a part of the mind that stores data is in code that is not language and therefore we can not access it directly. This is the limbic system. This is the difference between explicit and implicit memory and this is well demonstrated by hard science.
I am just getting into TMS now called PPD but in many treatment protocols it is not the basic theory that does the healing but other adjunctive tag alongs. In the placebo effect it is the mind not the sugar pill. Like the old medicine men the doctor entertains the patient while nature heals.
In PPD it may well be that we only need to get out of the way as nature wants to return us to homeostasis and that is the challenge to know what that entails. Hunting down that hidden shadow or dancing naked around the fire chanting to Asclepius.
I don’t know, I have ordered books and will see what they show and what they prescribe.I know from years of research that the mind can heal or destroy. In the end this will probably the summation of all the TMS/PPD work.
I would guess the majority of us have stress coping skills that are harmful and that is where the work lies. |
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All1Spirit
USA
149 Posts |
Posted - 02/06/2013 : 19:19:31
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| Are you not familiar with SPEC scans and fMRI's showing the brain activity during discrete emotional states, memory recall and thoughts. |
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All1Spirit
USA
149 Posts |
Posted - 02/06/2013 : 19:40:12
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Limbic System
The limbic system of the brain is responsible for converting short-term memory -- information the brain stores for a short period of time -- into long-term memory -- information permanently stored in the brain, which can be recalled when needed. The cortex and hippocampus store mostly language related memories called explicit, while other limbic structures store emotional memories as well as threat memories. These are not language based and are implicit.
All mammals store a lifetime of memories related to threats against the organism. While we do not know about lower mammals we do know that humans register emotions as neurological comparative code in the limbic system and they remain there for life. Early childhood emotional experiences are not as conditioned by cortical reasoning and are thus stored as raw emotional data that is difficult to recall into explicit memory. Because of the enormous amount of emotional data to be stored and the requirements of the organism that it be immediately available to the limbic system for protective response it is coded into neuro-electrical impulses and not common language.
This system has often been called the unconscious or the subconscious because it is not available to the explicit memory and acts without the benefit of cortical intervention in the event of perceived physical or emotional threat. This system also stores procedural memory that operates outside conscious awareness.
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Peregrinus
250 Posts |
Posted - 02/06/2013 : 21:38:07
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quote:
Originally posted by All1Spirit
...the mind that stores data is in code that is not language and therefore we can not access it directly.
All1Spirit:
Mathematicians and artists can think about concepts and relationships and they can discover inferences that are "not language". Information that is not language can be accessed and processed... I do it often. One of the most difficult steps in mathematics is expressing your discoveries in language. One of the most difficult tasks in art is to explain why a work is good or why it isn't.
Shawnsmith:
I appreciate your post and although I'm inclined to believe you I must admit that I find evidence of unconscious mental processes. Some events cause me to experience a strong emotional response and it is not immediately evident why I react the way I do. |
Edited by - Peregrinus on 02/06/2013 21:41:29 |
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balto
839 Posts |
Posted - 02/06/2013 : 22:26:56
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quote:
Originally posted by shawnsmith
With that being said, I am going to come right out and say that I do not believe in the existence of such a thing as an unconscious or subconscious mind or that there exists in anyone repressed emotions which are beyond our conscious awareness and controls our behavior.
I not smart enough to know if subconscious mind exist or not. My problem with it is when someone tell me that a bully punched me on my face 30, 40 years ago can be the cause of my back pain now. He punched me and it hurt for maybe a day, but my back pain can last for years or decades. If my subconscious mind is smart enough to try to distract me from my "repressed emotion", why then it is so stupid to keep me in pain for years. When is it going to stop the pain? How does it know when to start. And why the hell my mind has to keep those repressed emotion in my memory bank and punish me at a later date?
It just doesn't make sense to me.
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No, I don't know everything. I'm just here to share my experience. |
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eric watson
USA
601 Posts |
Posted - 02/07/2013 : 04:47:21
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there are different ways to heal but they all go doun the same path-example
i learned 25 years of psychology with everything under the moon-then i learned sarno-
pychologists werent teaching this but it gave me the tools -the book and the 12 daily reminders-
Now being free for a while and working my whole life in this area-
-mind and body has always been my passion-i have counseled and helped folks from 18 till now and i feel in my prime after beating this 25 yr gremlin-
shawn i know a lot more than just the books on tms youve read
i know youve read all the great minds too-we have things in commen
but im about to tell ya that ill give of my time -and prove to you that what sarno says is true and ill help you personally-(e mail)
(cell phone-)to heal-god did it for me-
i know the way-and its smooth brother
-i cant just tell ya to read a book or do another study-your right where i was 1 year ago-all studied out.
you want re-sults and thats it-
tangable re-sults-right now
i know weve had our differences shawn but i also know we both have a heart
ive seen it in you and vice versa-
im here extending my hand
ill help show you those tangable re-sults shawn
im not so busy as of yet so i can do phone calls and such
in the afternoons mostly-
ive helped for free- tons of folks before and now after tms -back then id lay hands on the sick-counsel them- be there for the smallest and the biggest issues-
now i can talk to you and show you tangable results and
it wont take forever-
my newest friend has healed in 1 month after we started our emails and conversations-now hed been learning for 3 months leading up to us meeting.
i know its been a long time for ya-youve waited and waited
we can find that missing element
does fm stand for fibromialgia-
a lady with full blown 100% fibromialgia had been given up on shawn and in like 2 phone calls shes about to pass the 100% mark now
i can and will help and im not saying im better that anyone
im blessed just like you shawn-lets do this so we can give the glory to god
its not a program of christians-but he gives the talents
its me and you and some healing advice and know how that will help you recover-
let me know-ill be waiting
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Edited by - eric watson on 02/07/2013 04:49:57 |
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Ace1
USA
1040 Posts |
Posted - 02/07/2013 : 05:25:21
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| Dear Shawn. I'm going to hear that you are cured one day. I will however cont to give you tips in between. Don't let this debate upset you. You kind of set yourself up by saying that you didn't want to hear the other side of coin bc you don't believe it. Lo and behold someone said the opposite, it was inevitable. You can't set yourself up like this, you have to accept the unacceptable in your mind. If you post something that you think will be challenged, just prepare yourself and decondition your reaction to the worst. This is part of your treatment. Use your affirmations of forgiveness and letting go easily. Your doing a good job. I can feel your improvement. Keep up the good work |
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shawnsmith
Czech Republic
2048 Posts |
Posted - 02/07/2013 : 09:03:12
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Hi Ace
I don't feel I am upset or anything, it's just that the discussion is not that productive for the purposes of the this message board. I don't want to hurt others by expressing my own particular doubts about certain issues. Yes, these days I am quite confused because people are bombarding the board with various treatment methods which they insist helped them. But I cannot go pursuing all of these methods as they will only confuse me and get me nowhere. As I stated, I am happy to hear when someone recovers regardless what method they used and I don't desire to be the source of someone else's pain.
Frankly Ace, if I were to be honest with you, what holds me back is the fear of the symptoms which, I don't need to tell you, are quite frightening at times. I don't like discussing particular symptoms on the message board as it sends out some kind of meme which places other people in an uncomfortable situation where they too, as a result of reading about a particular symptom, will develop it also. People with TMS, it appears, are susceptible to these kinds of suggestions.
I take comfort in the idea that there is essentially nothing physically wrong with me, despite the symptoms, but this knowledge alone has not led to my full recovery. Sarno's core message to those he diagnosed with TMS is that they are healthy and can carry on with their lives despite the pain, but our minds, which tend to think in catastrophic terms, continues to resist this message, mostly because of the counter messages it receives from the wider society which states pain = a physical problem and thus requires a physical treatment. As you know, sometimes this idea is correct, but if it is TMS we are dealing with then concentrating on the physical symptoms will only make matters worse and lead to further chronicity. |
Edited by - shawnsmith on 02/07/2013 17:06:14 |
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tennis tom
USA
4746 Posts |
Posted - 02/07/2013 : 10:29:58
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Hi Shawn,
It just doesn't sound like you have much joy in your life. Your posts are helpful but seem dispirited. Maybe you need to watch some funny old movies or musicals like Oklahoma. Here's a u-tube to get you started:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KxHGJMy8KFg
Cheers-up,
tt/lsmft |
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alix
USA
434 Posts |
Posted - 02/07/2013 : 10:35:11
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I think it was a great discussion on a fascinating topic. We heard excellent arguments from both sides. I am sorry that it stalled.
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shawnsmith
Czech Republic
2048 Posts |
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Ace1
USA
1040 Posts |
Posted - 02/07/2013 : 18:48:05
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Hi Shawn,
I'm glad to hear that it wasn't really upsetting you. Are you still making slow but steady progress? If not we can try to figure out what you may be doing wrong. Once you get the hang of your recovery, you will have no doubt about the right path for your recovery even if you have a long way to go. At one point, i was stuck and I will tell you the things that kept me stuck. I felt that I could not fear my pain, therefore, I could not yield to it. I would challenge it but it was keeping my focus riveted on my body. This was an extreme mistake, I was so intense though that I didn't want to feel that I was beaten. I found that the right thing and the thing that got me the most normal was to not give the pain any concern, but if in bad pain, it was even ok to yield to it and to know it was just temporary secondary to some way that I was straining. You have to attack the fear indirectly, as fear is an equivlant to the pain and if you challenge it head on, you lose. I noticed that all the people who got better fast (and faster than me) did it this way The second mistake was I was thinking it was some nebulous thing causing my problem, when in reality it was my strained behavior in the moment that was starting my symptoms. The last thing I did not know was my constant rush urge that was with me all day and was the number one cause of my symptoms, which I had to change through the use of mind power. I hope this helps you. Remember you become more and more a master of your mind, by knowing the above principles, and you will get better and better. |
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