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indiana
Denmark
70 Posts |
 Posted - 05/28/2013 : 04:04:20
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I am daily struggling with TMS and had good (more relaxed) 14 days where I distracted myself and told myself that it was all psychological. Of course it could not last and then came the setback with new symptoms.
I think people with back- hip- arm- leg or feet etc pain (most on this forum) get most out of Sarnos books as he specially adressses these pains and only spends a few lines on fibromyalgia or TMJ and other syndromes. I think these pains in the above mentioned body parts can be terrible and sufferers don't wish them on anybody. I think though they are "simpler". By "simpler" I mean they are also hard to deal with but in a different way. There is real pain and you are 100% certain that it is not structural (after having it checked).
When I look at last year until now I have been having one strange symptom after the other (in between the ones I know and have had for years like dizziness, TMJ and nervous bowl syndrome). It started with shortness of breath whilst in India (came out of the blue). That went away and I got painful bladder symptoms. That only went away after three months. Then came a big TMJ flare up and my jaw tension just won't go away. In between red watery eyes I lately have lost a lot of hair, and now I am itching all over specially my back. I guess it is anxiety which again is TMS. I know to get better I must not doubt that the symptoms are TMS but to get all these symptoms is very stressfull and every day I think what's next. I can cope with the "old" symptoms but new strange ones really stress me. I guess if my body was not so sensitized I would not think like that and feel every little stitch but the more symptoms I get the less I think I am getting better. I have done journaling and I know I am angry, goodist, perfectionist, low self esteem etc. and there is a lot of
pain from my childhood to deal with. I thought I would do it by getting therapi but I have changed my mind about that.
I feel like a self absorbed chicken constantly thinking about symptoms instead of getting on with it. Cannot face to go to the GP just to be told it is nothing but still have doubts because if it is just TMS how to know the difference between these anxiety symptoms and when something is wrong
On top of that I had a session with a yoga teacher to learn some new exercises. She said that because of years of bad posture (head and neck forward, shoulders up) my (tense) neck muscles did not get enough oxygen which made my jaw tense. It should be corrected by doing exercises to improve my posture. It's only a theory and her theory but somehow it makes sense. Until now I have believed I had tense jaw/neck muscles because of my anxiety/TMS which tensed up all of my upper body and of course also gave me bad posture. According to Sarno I should not do any exercises until it is for pure pleasure. I am really confused and I could do with some clarification.
Thanks
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pspa123
672 Posts |
Posted - 05/28/2013 : 06:27:40
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| My view of posture is that it doesnt cause pain per se. In other words, if you took a hypothetical person with no psychological issues bad posture would not put them into chronic pain. On the other hand, if muscles are already tight and in spasm and underoxygenated etc., bad posture -- putting extra stress on them -- can make things even worse. So just my personal view is that in your case just improving posture, even if you could do it with your tight muscles, would be low yield relatively speaking. You have to address what is making them tight in the first place. That said, i dont see any downside to doing exercises especiallyif there is a relaxation component. Again just one pov. |
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Dave
USA
1864 Posts |
Posted - 05/28/2013 : 08:52:41
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quote:
Originally posted by indiana
On top of that I had a session with a yoga teacher to learn some new exercises. She said that because of years of bad posture (head and neck forward, shoulders up) my (tense) neck muscles did not get enough oxygen which made my jaw tense. It should be corrected by doing exercises to improve my posture. It's only a theory and her theory but somehow it makes sense. Until now I have believed I had tense jaw/neck muscles because of my anxiety/TMS which tensed up all of my upper body and of course also gave me bad posture. According to Sarno I should not do any exercises until it is for pure pleasure. I am really confused and I could do with some clarification.
If you go down this path it will likely impede your progress treating the symptoms as TMS.
Regardless of whether there is any truth to bad posture causing chronic pain, if you allow your mind to accept that explanation, it undermines the belief that the symptoms have a psychological root cause. It opens the door for TMS to continue to manufacture symptoms that are consistent with the belief that there is a structural cause.
In the long run it is critical to take care of our bodies by doing what they were designed to do. No doubt our society promotes behavior that is not conducive to this, such as sitting at a computer for long stretches of time. It is only natural that if we do not exercise our bodies we may be more prone to certain aches and pains. However, when treating TMS, it is critical that we fully accept the fact that the brain is manufacturing the symptoms for psychological reasons, and to reinforce this belief continually to allow it to seep into our unconscious. This requires determination, focus, and time. During the early phases of treatment our unconscious mind will try very hard to derail our progress, and seize whatever opportunities you give it. Therefore it is detrimental to consider any physical or structural cause of the symptoms, or to seek any physical treatment whatsoever, because it undermines the reconditioning process that is essential to long-term recovery. This does not mean we should not take care of our bodies, but we have to be careful not to associate exercise with relief of physical symptoms. |
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1koolkat
USA
24 Posts |
Posted - 05/28/2013 : 09:12:36
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I relate to all you're saying and am sorry you're having such a rough spell, Indiana. In a way, I'm new to all this TMS stuff. I had a lot of jaw pain and fibro pain last night and insomnia. Kind of hard to figure out which pain to start on first. Won't really matter, though. Just got to pick one.
It occurred to me the other day, and your post reminds me, that I am at a cross roads. I need to pick one to travel on. Will I keep swarming all over "my" symptoms, being hypervigilant with them, taking one, going to the books or the internet, ordering more suppies to help, talking it over ad nauseum with someone who understands, going to the doctor, feeling helpless and hopeless because it won't go away and then, poof! there's another one? Then, the same MO starts all over.
Or, will I take the TMS road? I know it is the missing link for me. Will I believe it works? All the symptoms are there, but I need to choose. I don't get to pop those pills or "do" something more tangible to "distract myself" as you said. This way, for me, is about "being". I have to "be." I can stall as long as I like, and I'm aware I'm doing that simply by writing you this post. But, if I want to go down this road, I have to go "in" to get where I want to go. I HAVE to sit down at the journal. I HAVE to look. I don't HAVE to "see" unless I want to let go of the pain and the concomitant unconscious feelings that go with it. For me, this is a spiritual journey, one I have long dabbled at. And, whatever I'm choosing in the moment, I know that is perfect for me and I try to be kind to myself for the choice.
I was reading Claire Weekes' book about nerve pain last night and she helped me come to more peace with what's going on when she
talked about acceptance of the symptoms. Chickenbone, from this site, turned me on to her, reminding me of that very thing, and I'm very grateful. I feel peaceful with it, (right now) regardless of the symptoms. That's a coup. Nowdays, I believe that everything that happens is for my benefit.
I know your choices will be perfect for you and take you down the road to your highest and best good.
Kathryn Parker |
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Ace1
USA
1040 Posts |
Posted - 05/28/2013 : 10:55:11
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Hi Indiana,
Just like others have said DO NOT go down the path of posture and the physical explainations, they will make you get no better and impede your progress.Did you know when you sit at a computer for a long period of time, it is not the posture thats casuing the pain, but the impatience and annoyance of sitting in one place for too long?
Everytime a symptom occurs, dont let it sensitize you more to the situation at hand. If it does, then your symptoms will tend to get worse in these situations. You have to just act as normal as possible in these situations and can use directed affirmations to help.
Sometimes in retrospect you will see why in certain situations you are sensitized. This will help you use better directed affirmations in the future
Beating TMS is the HARDEST thing I have ever done (this is bc mine was a very severe case). It takes much commitment and dedication. It also takes patience on seeing results and faith when your experencing symptoms. Remember that being absorbed with your symtptoms is part of the syndrome. |
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stayfit65
54 Posts |
Posted - 05/28/2013 : 11:56:08
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Ace,
You nailed it when you said "annoyance and "impatience." I think that's a big part of for me. I would much rather be out enjoying the beautiful Georgia sunshine, but I am stuck inside working a desk job to pay the bills. I know I get bored and annoyed with this...but I don't worry about posture anymore, because at one time before I knew about tms I was using a pt who was taping my back into "right posture," and my pain level was off the charts. So I know this pain is not caused by bad posture. Maybe it will go away completely eventually, but I just keep saying to myself, "it's not that bad, it is a lot better than this time last year," things like that...and it is working. |
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Ace1
USA
1040 Posts |
Posted - 05/28/2013 : 12:03:15
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| Thank you stayfit for your feedback. Keep up the good work! May I suggest something to help speed along your progress? It is better to not use the negative of the negative when using affirmations. For example, it is better to say this place is enjoyable rather than to say its not that bad. I think this may help in making your progress faster. Keep us updated. |
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indiana
Denmark
70 Posts |
Posted - 05/28/2013 : 12:07:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Dave
quote:
Originally posted by indiana
On top of that I had a session with a yoga teacher to learn some new exercises. She said that because of years of bad posture (head and neck forward, shoulders up) my (tense) neck muscles did not get enough oxygen which made my jaw tense. It should be corrected by doing exercises to improve my posture. It's only a theory and her theory but somehow it makes sense. Until now I have believed I had tense jaw/neck muscles because of my anxiety/TMS which tensed up all of my upper body and of course also gave me bad posture. According to Sarno I should not do any exercises until it is for pure pleasure. I am really confused and I could do with some clarification.
If you go down this path it will likely impede your progress treating the symptoms as TMS.
Regardless of whether there is any truth to bad posture causing chronic pain, if you allow your mind to accept that explanation, it undermines the belief that the symptoms have a psychological root cause. It opens the door for TMS to continue to manufacture symptoms that are consistent with the belief that there is a structural cause.
In the long run it is critical to take care of our bodies by doing what they were designed to do. No doubt our society promotes behavior that is not conducive to this, such as sitting at a computer for long stretches of time. It is only natural that if we do not exercise our bodies we may be more prone to certain aches and pains. However, when treating TMS, it is critical that we fully accept the fact that the brain is manufacturing the symptoms for psychological reasons, and to reinforce this belief continually to allow it to seep into our unconscious. This requires determination, focus, and time. During the early phases of treatment our unconscious mind will try very hard to derail our progress, and seize whatever opportunities you give it. Therefore it is detrimental to consider any physical or structural cause of the symptoms, or to seek any physical treatment whatsoever, because it undermines the reconditioning process that is essential to long-term recovery. This does not mean we should not take care of our bodies, but we have to be careful not to associate exercise with relief of physical symptoms.
Thanks Dave for reminding me which path I need to stay on instead of whining about my
Indiana |
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indiana
Denmark
70 Posts |
Posted - 05/28/2013 : 12:12:05
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quote:
Originally posted by Ace1
Hi Indiana,
Just like others have said DO NOT go down the path of posture and the physical explainations, they will make you get no better and impede your progress.Did you know when you sit at a computer for a long period of time, it is not the posture thats casuing the pain, but the impatience and annoyance of sitting in one place for too long?
Everytime a symptom occurs, dont let it sensitize you more to the situation at hand. If it does, then your symptoms will tend to get worse in these situations. You have to just act as normal as possible in these situations and can use directed affirmations to help.
Sometimes in retrospect you will see why in certain situations you are sensitized. This will help you use better directed affirmations in the future
Beating TMS is the HARDEST thing I have ever done (this is bc mine was a very severe case). It takes much commitment and dedication. It also takes patience on seeing results and faith when your experencing symptoms. Remember that being absorbed with your symtptoms is part of the syndrome.
Hej Ac1
Now that it has been spelled out to me again (and again) I think it has sunk in.
Commitment, dedication and patience that is what I am lacking and have to work on. Thanks
Indiana |
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indiana
Denmark
70 Posts |
Posted - 05/28/2013 : 12:34:16
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[quote]Originally posted by 1koolkat
I relate to all you're saying and am sorry you're having such a rough spell, Indiana. In a way, I'm new to all this TMS stuff. I had a lot of jaw pain and fibro pain last night and insomnia. Kind of hard to figure out which pain to start on first. Won't really matter, though. Just got to pick one.
It occurred to me the other day, and your post reminds me, that I am at a cross roads. I need to pick one to travel on. Will I keep swarming all over "my" symptoms, being hypervigilant with them, taking one, going to the books or the internet, ordering more suppies to help, talking it over ad nauseum with someone who understands, going to the doctor, feeling helpless and hopeless because it won't go away and then, poof! there's another one? Then, the same MO starts all over.
Or, will I take the TMS road? I know it is the missing link for me. Will I believe it works? All the symptoms are there, but I need to choose. I don't get to pop those pills or "do" something more tangible to "distract myself" as you said. This way, for me, is about "being". I have to "be." I can stall as long as I like, and I'm aware I'm doing that simply by writing you this post. But, if I want to go down this road, I have to go "in" to get where I want to go. I HAVE to sit down at the journal. I HAVE to look. I don't HAVE to "see" unless I want to let go of the pain and the concomitant unconscious feelings that go with it. For me, this is a spiritual journey, one I have long dabbled at. And, whatever I'm choosing in the moment, I know that is perfect for me and I try to be kind to myself for the choice.
I was reading Claire Weekes' book about nerve pain last night and she helped me come to more peace with what's going on when she
talked about acceptance of the symptoms. Chickenbone, from this site, turned me on to her, reminding me of that very thing, and I'm very grateful. I feel peaceful with it, (right now) regardless of the symptoms. That's a coup. Nowdays, I believe that everything that happens is for my benefit.
I know your choices will be perfect for you and take you down the road to your highest and best good.
Kathryn Parker
Hello 1koolcat
Yes it keeps being a crossroad where we have to make a choice (i hope only at the beginning) on how much we want to let the symptoms control our life. Living life as if we did not have these .......symptoms and stay on our path even though it gets though that is the prescription as I understand it from some very supportive ex-sufferers.
One little progress I have made lately is not talking about my symptoms to anybody and not thinking about them so often.(But just today I had a bad day and a relapse and came whining on this forum). I think it can contribute to not feeling like a victim (i hope) when your symptoms are not on your mind constantly and seem the most important thing in your thinking.
All the best
Marlis |
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indiana
Denmark
70 Posts |
Posted - 05/28/2013 : 13:21:26
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quote:
Originally posted by pspa123
My view of posture is that it doesnt cause pain per se. In other words, if you took a hypothetical person with no psychological issues bad posture would not put them into chronic pain. On the other hand, if muscles are already tight and in spasm and underoxygenated etc., bad posture -- putting extra stress on them -- can make things even worse. So just my personal view is that in your case just improving posture, even if you could do it with your tight muscles, would be low yield relatively speaking. You have to address what is making them tight in the first place. That said, i dont see any downside to doing exercises especiallyif there is a relaxation component. Again just one pov.
Good point pspa123
What is making my muscles so tight? I wish I knew but I guess it is my
negative thoughts and anxiety. I know that doing exercises with tight muscles is doing more harm. |
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indiana
Denmark
70 Posts |
Posted - 05/28/2013 : 13:24:21
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quote:
Originally posted by pspa123
My view of posture is that it doesnt cause pain per se. In other words, if you took a hypothetical person with no psychological issues bad posture would not put them into chronic pain. On the other hand, if muscles are already tight and in spasm and underoxygenated etc., bad posture -- putting extra stress on them -- can make things even worse. So just my personal view is that in your case just improving posture, even if you could do it with your tight muscles, would be low yield relatively speaking. You have to address what is making them tight in the first place. That said, i dont see any downside to doing exercises especiallyif there is a relaxation component. Again just one pov.
Good point pspa123
What makes my muscles so tight? I wish I knew but I guess it is my negative thoughts and anxiety. I know that doing exercises with tight muscles is doing more harm. |
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plum
United Kingdom
641 Posts |
Posted - 05/28/2013 : 17:08:28
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Marlis,
you said:
I think people with back- hip- arm- leg or feet etc pain (most on this forum) get most out of Sarnos books as he specially adressses these pains and only spends a few lines on fibromyalgia or TMJ and other syndromes. I think these pains in the above mentioned body parts can be terrible and sufferers don't wish them on anybody. I think though they are "simpler". By "simpler" I mean they are also hard to deal with but in a different way. There is real pain and you are 100% certain that it is not structural (after having it checked).
I've commented on this minor annoyance myself. I have had crippling back pain but have never been anywhere near as alarmed by it as tmj. How lovely things may be had dear Dr. Sarno written a book called 'Healing TMJ' or 'Healing (insert your woe here). It's the psychological comfort we seek. So in this spirit let me share a few words of Osho because it nicely supports Sarno and the body~mind approach.
"There are many blocks in your body. A person who has been suppressing anger, his jaw becomes blocked. All the anger comes up to the jaw and then stops there...remember anger has two sources to be released from. One is teeth, another is fingers. All animals, when they are angry, will bite you with their teeth or they will start tearing at you with their hands...if you suppress anything, in the body there is some part, a corresponding part to the emotion."
He then went on to talk about the beauty of weeping and laughing, of being true no matter the cost, and being in the moment. Emotional freedom, essentially.
I'd echo the general advice given about posture. I used to dance and was once told my back problems were due to that. Maybe. Dance tends to exaggerate postural *ideals* so it seems an easy explanation to rest on. I believe it has much more to do with relaxation.
Now to yoga and exercise. I did a great job of confusing myself on this issue. Dave explains the essential differences between simply exercising and performing certain moves to seek relief very well. It's worth reading his post a few times until it sinks in. Our bodies want to move. They need it. At the close of his book 'The Great Pain Deception', SteveO provides a thorough checklist which includes a reminder to physically move in order to oxygenate the system. Exercise also helps you relax and sleep.
I explored yoga and tmj, and came away with the realisation that the healing comes from relaxation. Sure there are tension-releasing asanas like the lion, and the circuit-making tongue to roof of mouth (also proscribed to stop clenching), but beyond all this is the reconnection with your body, slowing down, relaxing.
I cannot call the study to mind but there was a recent academic paper stating that tmj is commonly found in people whose sympathetic nervous system dominates. Of course. So you see, it all joins up in the end.
Have a look at this link for a quick lowdown.
http://drlwilson.com/Articles/NERVOUS%20SYSTEM.htm
Devote yourself to soothing, calming, healing your mind, emotions, body and spirit.
Remember too Marlis, you're closer to God in the garden than anywhere else.
Blessings my dear. |
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pspa123
672 Posts |
Posted - 05/28/2013 : 18:39:26
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quote:
Originally posted by indiana
quote:
Originally posted by pspa123
My view of posture is that it doesnt cause pain per se. In other words, if you took a hypothetical person with no psychological issues bad posture would not put them into chronic pain. On the other hand, if muscles are already tight and in spasm and underoxygenated etc., bad posture -- putting extra stress on them -- can make things even worse. So just my personal view is that in your case just improving posture, even if you could do it with your tight muscles, would be low yield relatively speaking. You have to address what is making them tight in the first place. That said, i dont see any downside to doing exercises especiallyif there is a relaxation component. Again just one pov.
Good point pspa123
What makes my muscles so tight? I wish I knew but I guess it is my negative thoughts and anxiety. I know that doing exercises with tight muscles is doing more harm.
Whether you are a top downer or a bottom upper, tight muscles are a very common expression of psychogenic issues. I personally don't believe exercises will do you any harm, but they won't get at the root of the problem either. |
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indiana
Denmark
70 Posts |
Posted - 05/29/2013 : 03:07:16
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quote:
Originally posted by plum
Marlis,
you said:
I think people with back- hip- arm- leg or feet etc pain (most on this forum) get most out of Sarnos books as he specially adressses these pains and only spends a few lines on fibromyalgia or TMJ and other syndromes. I think these pains in the above mentioned body parts can be terrible and sufferers don't wish them on anybody. I think though they are "simpler". By "simpler" I mean they are also hard to deal with but in a different way. There is real pain and you are 100% certain that it is not structural (after having it checked).
I've commented on this minor annoyance myself. I have had crippling back pain but have never been anywhere near as alarmed by it as tmj. How lovely things may be had dear Dr. Sarno written a book called 'Healing TMJ' or 'Healing (insert your woe here). It's the psychological comfort we seek. So in this spirit let me share a few words of Osho because it nicely supports Sarno and the body~mind approach.
"There are many blocks in your body. A person who has been suppressing anger, his jaw becomes blocked. All the anger comes up to the jaw and then stops there...remember anger has two sources to be released from. One is teeth, another is fingers. All animals, when they are angry, will bite you with their teeth or they will start tearing at you with their hands...if you suppress anything, in the body there is some part, a corresponding part to the emotion."
He then went on to talk about the beauty of weeping and laughing, of being true no matter the cost, and being in the moment. Emotional freedom, essentially.
I'd echo the general advice given about posture. I used to dance and was once told my back problems were due to that. Maybe. Dance tends to exaggerate postural *ideals* so it seems an easy explanation to rest on. I believe it has much more to do with relaxation.
Now to yoga and exercise. I did a great job of confusing myself on this issue. Dave explains the essential differences between simply exercising and performing certain moves to seek relief very well. It's worth reading his post a few times until it sinks in. Our bodies want to move. They need it. At the close of his book 'The Great Pain Deception', SteveO provides a thorough checklist which includes a reminder to physically move in order to oxygenate the system. Exercise also helps you relax and sleep.
I explored yoga and tmj, and came away with the realisation that the healing comes from relaxation. Sure there are tension-releasing asanas like the lion, and the circuit-making tongue to roof of mouth (also proscribed to stop clenching), but beyond all this is the reconnection with your body, slowing down, relaxing.
I cannot call the study to mind but there was a recent academic paper stating that tmj is commonly found in people whose sympathetic nervous system dominates. Of course. So you see, it all joins up in the end.
Have a look at this link for a quick lowdown.
http://drlwilson.com/Articles/NERVOUS%20SYSTEM.htm
Devote yourself to soothing, calming, healing your mind, emotions, body and spirit.
Remember too Marlis, you're closer to God in the garden than anywhere else.
Blessings my dear.
Hello Plum
Thanks for your post incl. the useful link.
Yes TMJ is a real pain in the a.....Visits to dentist make it worse and you never know when it hits you (or it never leaves you really). I wonder how TMJ shows itself in people because it is different for everybody. My TMJ is jaw tension and I could do jaw exercises until I am blue in the face (as advised everywhere), it makes no difference. So it must be emotional pains which are stuck in the jaw and want to be dealt with. Very interesting lines by Osho.
I am moving about a lot (walking, going by bicycle, gardening) and I suppose it keeps me fit and if I did not do it I would feel worse but it does not relax me. I think you are absolutely right about reconnecting with your body, slowing down, relaxing. I have calmed down a bit by daily yoga (very few exercises but doing them well). It must be doing the exercises slowly and breathing properly that does it and doing it to feel good - not for relief even if it does give me relief. I have noticed that I do everything fast during the day (mentioned in your Dr. Wilson link ) and often I don't even notice. It has just become part of me. I guess lack of concentration is also a dominance of the sympathetic nerve system and the theory that people with TMJ have a dominance of the SNS fits in my case I think.
So the key word here must be relaxation and I have to figure out what relaxes me most (or gives me most stress) "Ordering" me to relax has certainly not worked so far.
Thanks for your kind words
Marlis |
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GTfan
USA
84 Posts |
Posted - 05/29/2013 : 08:06:54
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quote:
Originally posted by Ace1
Thank you stayfit for your feedback. Keep up the good work! May I suggest something to help speed along your progress? It is better to not use the negative of the negative when using affirmations. For example, it is better to say this place is enjoyable rather than to say its not that bad. I think this may help in making your progress faster. Keep us updated.
Initially I thought this kind of thinking was contributing to my TMS. If I don't enjoy going to work, then wouldn't telling myself that it was enjoyable be a form of emotion repression? Or is this just an affirmation that in the long run will actually change my way of thinking?
You’ll fall down, you stumble, you land square on your face. And every time that happens, you get back on your feet. You get up just as fast as you can, no matter how many times you need to do it |
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Ace1
USA
1040 Posts |
Posted - 05/29/2013 : 08:45:57
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| Yes, you are saying the affirmation to the opposite effect because you are AWARE. This is the opposite of repression where there is no awareness. You are trying to modify the way you react to certain things in the long run, not in the moment, which takes time. The affirmations by themselves without the awareness I think are not very useful. You have to be aware of the tension and with that in mind, change your thinking and conditioning were the affirmations are tools to help. |
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plum
United Kingdom
641 Posts |
Posted - 05/29/2013 : 13:09:39
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Aye, relaxation is yielding. A beautiful surrender. Truly letting go.
In the same way that pleasure cannot be forced, relaxation blooms in natural joy. Do and be what pleases you. I'm at this juncture; resolving care with freedom.
Here's a link from the wiki featuring Forest speaking on trying too hard to heal. Note where he speaks of activation. Sounds like a dominant SNS to me.
http://www.tmswiki.org/forum/threads/3-can-you-work-too-hard-at-overcoming-tms.194/
Best to you my dear.
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Edited by - plum on 05/29/2013 13:10:21 |
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Does anybody recognize this pattern
