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Sara
66 Posts |
 Posted - 10/04/2004 : 08:33:06
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Hey all. I posted not too long ago about SI joint pain and pelvic pain. Since reading some of your posts and receiving an email from Marc Sopher, I have begun to feel a bit better. Sopher does not believe that a hpermobile pelvis should cause pain.
I don't however, think I have embraced TMS completely. After my second child was born two years ago, I was told that my pubic bone separated and that my pelvis was hypermobile. Still TMS? It seems like a separated pubic bone would generate pain. I guess my feeling a bit better should be enough confirmation, but it isn't, for whatever reason. I should note that four days after my daughter was born she was diagnosed with a dislocatable hip and had to wear a harness on her body for 6 months to help the socket grow properly. Although we knew she would be fine we felt quite sad. Could this have been a trigger? As you can see I am still trying to educate myself and I appreciate everyone's insight.
Sara |
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tennis tom
USA
4749 Posts |
Posted - 10/04/2004 : 11:02:51
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Dear Sara,
Good for you! Glad you are feeling better. Keep reading Sarno, until you are "brainwashed", (sorry Gary). If, in your head you don't think you have completely embraced TMS theory, then you certainly haven't embraced it in your heart. Be patient, you can't change overnight what took a lifelong of conditioning to instill in your personality.
It's amazing how much voo-doo like influence the white-coats have on us. We have become so dependent on them for the "truth" from on high. I've played a lot of tennis with these demi-gods and shrinks and their calls are no better than yours or mine.
After being examimed, by at least 10 docs, for my "arthritic" right hip, and seen the cursory nature of their views of my x-rays, I view modern medicine just a notch above blood-letting performed by barbers at the turn of the century. Don't ask a barber if you need a haircut. The answer will always be Yes!-(believe me, my ladyfriend is a hairdresser). But a barber will do a lot less damage to you than the white-coats can.
Sorry to hear about your daughter's hip diagnosis. My reaction from cyberspace is HOGWASH! There was probably nothing wrong with your daughter. The pediatrician probably needed to make a payment on his new Jaguar or was just playing it safe, at your expense, not wanting to get sued for malpractice, for not dotting all his i's and crossing all his t's.
DISCLAIMER; I am only a tennis player and have no degrees in
medicine. Please don't sue my sorry butt, it's already been through enough.
It has taken me years to convince myself that my hip is TMS and I still have some residual pain because for psychological reasons I never rest it. The best thing I have done is view Sarno as my primary doctor, (although I have not and problably won't ever be seeing him in person). I try to stay as far away from docs and any phyical therapy people as posible. The last couple of diagnosises I had I just laughed at. Did I say that leeches are once again coming back into vogue for blood-letting?
I hope my bluntness has not offended you Sara, but that's just how I feel. I find that EXPRESSING my feelings will help prevent me from REPRESSING them and prevent them from morphing into TMS psychogenic pain. It may piss off a lot of people but who needs friends like that?
Best of luck on your TMS journey Sara.
tt
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menvert
Australia
133 Posts |
Posted - 10/05/2004 : 03:01:54
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Nice post Tom :)
I myself have lost all the faith I ever had in doctors for treating anything other than broken bones and one or two other minor problems.
I have seen a nice documentary on placebo effect. That is pretty much and always has been the job of doctors.... whether they be witch doctors or men in white coats. The things doctors of a few hundred years ago used to do and believe in pretty much boil down to the doctor saying here take this and you will be better. And if your trust in the doctor was sufficient, you will be better.
Some of the cases which stand out in my mind are . A doctor told this man that he has cancer and will probably die in three months.. three weeks later he was dead, and the biopsy showed no cancer whatsoever or any other physical reason for death. Another (freshman)doctor who cured an incurable skin disease using hypnotism simply because he thought the skin disease was something else known to be curable. When he was told otherwise, he was unable to cure people anymore.
It is also understandable that most doctors trained classically are completely unable to accept that TMS diagnosis, because conditioning is so very strong in every human being.
So , a large percentage (statistically usually one third , but arguably higher) of all illnesses are caused or cured by placebo/nocebo
and yes sara , although your pubic bone may have initially caused legitimate physical pain .It is the TMS , that perpetuates or increases/changes, the pain...
According to Sarno, pretty much every physical problem should heal within six weeks. |
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tennis tom
USA
4749 Posts |
Posted - 10/05/2004 : 09:24:20
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Thanks for your support on that Menvert  . I recall Sarno saying, in one of his books, something to the effect, that 80% of patients, in doctor's waiting rooms, had TMS and NOT something structural.
Someone who has been run over by a bus, granted, will likely sustain structural injuries-but, then, one has to ask the question, what un-conscious gremlin created the in-attention that put them in front of that bus? If they were in the moment, would thsy have sensed the bus coming and been able to avoid it? Are there any true accidents, or with attention, could they be avoided?
Menvert, the citations you gave about placebo cures were interesting. That sounds like a good documentary.
Thanks,
tt
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pault
USA
169 Posts |
Posted - 10/08/2004 : 05:03:59
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| Sara , I bet there are many people with the same problem and are not aware of it.If not for x-rays you would not know . Even if it was a real problem, your body can heal or adjust to just about anything anyway. Just tell your unconcious brain that your body is tough and you don't need the pain! Good Luck,keep reading! |
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klc183
11 Posts |
Posted - 10/10/2004 : 19:07:33
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Hi, Sara:
I will look back through the posts to find your original post. I am interested in what you said about pelvic pain and SI pain that has moved around since last March. I have been dealing with hip/pelvic/SI pain that affects my hip flexors. I am so discouraged. I admit that I tried conventional treatment, but it did not work over a period of several months. This is when I decided that I need to focus on it as TMS, but it is really hard. Several things suggest tms: (1) moves around some; (2) pain sometimes there, sometimes not, etc. (3) pain has all but gone away at the last 4 miles of my run many occasions; (4) pain is nonexistent when I am being affected by the humidity (breathing is hard). I believe it is TMS, but I am also afraid. I am wondering what you are doing (TMS treatment-wise) and what Dr. Sopher had to say? Does he have a contact email?
Thank you in advance for your time!
KLC
quote:
Originally posted by Sara
Hey all. I posted not too long ago about SI joint pain and pelvic pain. Since reading some of your posts and receiving an email from Marc Sopher, I have begun to feel a bit better. Sopher does not believe that a hpermobile pelvis should cause pain.
I don't however, think I have embraced TMS completely. After my second child was born two years ago, I was told that my pubic bone separated and that my pelvis was hypermobile. Still TMS? It seems like a separated pubic bone would generate pain. I guess my feeling a bit better should be enough confirmation, but it isn't, for whatever reason. I should note that four days after my daughter was born she was diagnosed with a dislocatable hip and had to wear a harness on her body for 6 months to help the socket grow properly. Although we knew she would be fine we felt quite sad. Could this have been a trigger? As you can see I am still trying to educate myself and I appreciate everyone's insight.
Sara
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Sara
66 Posts |
Posted - 10/11/2004 : 07:50:13
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KLC,
My story is this: I began having leg pain while running (I too was once a marathoner-haven't run since). I ignored it and then woke one day with terrible back pain. I tried every treatment and had all kinds of tests. Nothing helped and nothing showed up on the tests. With time the pain got better and I was able to do more, but I could never run. The pain was there everyday, but it was tolerable. My IT bands were, and are, quite tight as well.
Then two years ago after a difficult birth, I had terrible pubic bone pain and back pain. I couldn't walk that well, the pain in my pelvis was terrible. I felt very "loose" and felt as though my pelvis could break apart at any minute.
I tried PT which helped some and then prolotherapy which did nothing. I was told I had a hypermobile pelvis. They believed that my past athletic history, along with childbirth, was what caused my ligaments to be so relaxed (I was a gymnast as a kid, a diver in college, and a runner post college). However, when I emailed Sopher he said he did not believe in hypermobility and that athletics make you stronger not weaker. He said he can't diagnose me without meeting me, but suspected my pain was due to tms. As I said I have yet to embrace this and really want to meet with a doctor. I have my doubts that my pain is due to tms as mine never moves around. I don't know if tms pain is constant in some cases, but I hope that it is as I feel I am out of options and quite sick of living with pain! I live outside of Denver and am unable to find a doctor here. I may travel to LA to meet with one.
Anyway, I don't know Sopher's email, but you can do a search for his web site and there will be contact information there. It took him only two days to respond.
I am sorry I can't be much of a help, let me know what you find out.
Sara |
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tennis tom
USA
4749 Posts |
Posted - 10/11/2004 : 10:57:05
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Dear Sara,
My history is somewhat similar to yours, accept for the birthing part. I too had been a marathon runner, 13 completed, but never had chronic TMS back then.
TMS does NOT need to move around. Mine was very stationary in my right hip, and still is their. I'm operating at 99% overall and I'd guesstimate 75% function in the TMS leg.
I did have a TMS eppiphany after it shifted from my hip to my neck/shoulder, (a dormant injury site), and then returned to the dominant hip site. Your pain does not have to shift or jump around to be diagnosed as TMS. I would think, pain shifting, would be less characteristic in general. If it does shift it would indicate that the gremlin has been found out and he is on the run-that's a good thing.
I didn't accept mine for TMS and still have trouble completely accepting it because of the negative images planted by "well-meaning" doctors. I recall years ago my family doctor, warning me about my running. That it would have dire consequences. I had no hip pain during all my years of running and do not accept that I wore out my cartelge. If I was not a believer in Sarno, no doubt, I would believe my doctor's diagnosis. If you're doing structural damage, IMHO, you'll feel it at the time, or the next day-not years later.
My TMS, co-incided with a big relationship breakup, that dragged on for years, and had some very psychologicaly traumatiic moments.
Keep reading Sarno. We have a habit of not believing that his book addresses our specfic structural symptom. I skipped over the part about hip arthritis for years, thinking it was not definitive enough. I finally read it, for probably the tenth, time and got it. This is a trick our mind plays on us to resist the "cure".
In MBP, Sarno relates a study that lists life's most TMS spawning situations-I'm sure giving birth is one of them. Look it up.
Sarno says the "cure" for TMS is knowledge therapy. After years of resistance and being on the fence, I now agree more fully. I'm convinced the "cure" is not doing anything physicaly therapeutic. Instead it is acceptance and swallowing the mindbody prescription.
I'm now going out to do a run. I'll start very slowly, until my TMS holding, hip muscles, release. That may take about 10-20 minutes, (they always do break free), and then speed up a bit. I find as we age, we can still perform at a very high athletic capacity, it just takes a bit longer to warm-up.
Hope this helps,
tt
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tennis tom
USA
4749 Posts |
Posted - 10/11/2004 : 12:14:43
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I'm back! Small TMS success. I did my run. I don't know how long in time or distance. Maybe, 30-40 minutes, maybe two miles. I have no idea. In the old days, I would have probably been able to guess-timate within 15 secs. and a block. I take it as a good sign that I want to start keeping track again and I feel a little better than my last attempt at run/walk/run/walk, about a week ago.
My hip did break loose, about half-way through and I finished feeling good. The hip felt loose and "juiced" up. The bursas did their job, producing synnovial fluid, to lube it up.
Some of the distacting thoughts during the run:
My left ankle and achilles are aching. They should, after all, they've been doing the brunt of the work for ten years, as the right side, limps along and atrophies. (That's the srtructural explanation). On my previous outing, the left ankle pain completely disappeared after a distraction, (an example of pain shifting).
My laces are loose. Mildly irriataing, but I won't stop to re-tie until they come undone. Ignore it or try to. Besides, I have trouble bendng over to tie them. The sympathetic surgeon said I could always come back too see him, for a hip replacement, when I couln't bend over to tie my shoes and the pain was too bad to sleep at night. I'm way more recovered beyond that point. No pain in bed anymore. Maybe I'll get velcro tie shoes-maybe not-plenty of juniors around, I'll ask them to tie my shoes for me.
I'll run between the benches along the bay side public access. No, I'll stop and walk at any point-no goals. See people walking, I'll run 'til I pass them, I'm more competitve with an audience.
Run/walk/run/walk/run.
Almost back home. I'll shoot for a strong finish. Always had a strong finish in 5/10K's.
Shoe lace finally came untied. Ain't stopping now. The guy, washing his car will probably point out it's untied. I'll say "live dangerously".
Made it home. Hip feels good. No-TMS pain. Proved the Good Doctor is right. Looking forward to doing it again soon, (or once a week; don't want to over-do it). Didn't trip on my laces-live dangerously.
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Sara
66 Posts |
Posted - 10/11/2004 : 14:13:04
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Tom,
That is great news. If you don't mind my asking, after having accepted the TMS diagnosis, what percentage do you feel better. I am truly looking forward to getting out there someday, but I have a long way to go. I miss running as it was an excellent outlet for me. I hope to get out there soon or at least be able to take my 5 year old skiing for the first time.
Sara |
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klc183
11 Posts |
Posted - 10/11/2004 : 15:26:39
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Hi, Sara -
Thanks for the information. I think our experiences are different, but you are actually the first I have come across with pelvic/SI pain issues.
KLC
quote:
Originally posted by Sara
KLC,
My story is this: I began having leg pain while running (I too was once a marathoner-haven't run since). I ignored it and then woke one day with terrible back pain. I tried every treatment and had all kinds of tests. Nothing helped and nothing showed up on the tests. With time the pain got better and I was able to do more, but I could never run. The pain was there everyday, but it was tolerable. My IT bands were, and are, quite tight as well.
Then two years ago after a difficult birth, I had terrible pubic bone pain and back pain. I couldn't walk that well, the pain in my pelvis was terrible. I felt very "loose" and felt as though my pelvis could break apart at any minute.
I tried PT which helped some and then prolotherapy which did nothing. I was told I had a hypermobile pelvis. They believed that my past athletic history, along with childbirth, was what caused my ligaments to be so relaxed (I was a gymnast as a kid, a diver in college, and a runner post college). However, when I emailed Sopher he said he did not believe in hypermobility and that athletics make you stronger not weaker. He said he can't diagnose me without meeting me, but suspected my pain was due to tms. As I said I have yet to embrace this and really want to meet with a doctor. I have my doubts that my pain is due to tms as mine never moves around. I don't know if tms pain is constant in some cases, but I hope that it is as I feel I am out of options and quite sick of living with pain! I live outside of Denver and am unable to find a doctor here. I may travel to LA to meet with one.
Anyway, I don't know Sopher's email, but you can do a search for his web site and there will be contact information there. It took him only two days to respond.
I am sorry I can't be much of a help, let me know what you find out.
Sara
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Suzanne
USA
66 Posts |
Posted - 10/11/2004 : 19:01:09
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KLC,
There's plenty of pelvic/SI joint/hip TMS'ers out there. We're just the minority because the low back pain, leg, shoulder, etc. areas are far more common.
I'm one of the pelvic/SI/coccyx TMS people. Thankfully, Dr. Sarno told me I was not the first, and won't be the last. He said it's far more common that I thought, but less spoken about due to the area and that it baffles doctors. |
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Zshapiro32
USA
31 Posts |
Posted - 10/11/2004 : 19:49:38
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Wow, you actually met with Sarno? I'd love to meet with him. He has such conviction in his books. I think just seeing him in person would remove my pain.
quote:
Originally posted by Suzanne
KLC,
There's plenty of pelvic/SI joint/hip TMS'ers out there. We're just the minority because the low back pain, leg, shoulder, etc. areas are far more common.
I'm one of the pelvic/SI/coccyx TMS people. Thankfully, Dr. Sarno told me I was not the first, and won't be the last. He said it's far more common that I thought, but less spoken about due to the area and that it baffles doctors.
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tennis tom
USA
4749 Posts |
Posted - 10/11/2004 : 20:33:56
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Sara, I can't give an objective answer at the moment. Overall 99% better after reading and slowly accepting Sarno's TMS theory on a heartfelt basis. The right hip is going through a breakthrough today. Only the future knows how it will feel. I'm shooting for 100% there. I think I can do it with a little more work at deconditioning my limp reflex that it's had for years now.
Wish me luck.
tt |
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tennis tom
USA
4749 Posts |
Posted - 10/12/2004 : 14:47:58
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Update on my hip:
Today is the BEST it has felt since my hip pain began, years ago. I woke up this morning with ZERO pain. I was anxious to get to my morning practice and give it the acid test-would my hip lock up, and my gait return, to the limping mode ? ? ?
My coach often makes us run in to him to listen to a "chalk-talk". He does it deliberately to make us run a little. On my first oportunity to run in, I did so with a natural stride. I was wondering if my coach would notice? He did and seemed somewhat shocked. He said that I looked good.
It felt like the good old days, when I was a runner. I can feel that I am on the edge. I could easily return to limping with some emotional stress added to the mix. I'm excited about this breakthrough. I realize it's under my control and I'm learning how to better play the TMS ball, rather than it playing me.
I'm surprised at how short a period of time, (after many years of TMS affliction), it has taken be to de-condition my hip from the limp reflex, once I made my mind up. I am now curious to observe, how it will attempt to go back to limping or move around. One equivalent I am feeling, is positve energy, which I view as a good thing. It's the other side of the TMS coin in contrast to my usual tendancy to procrastinate, being a TMS perfectionist.
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Zshapiro32
USA
31 Posts |
Posted - 10/12/2004 : 15:06:26
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wow tom, congratulations. that's amazing.
Why do you think you have just suddenly started making this great progress after years of knowing your hip problem is the result of TMS?
quote:
Originally posted by tennis tom
Update on my hip:
Today is the BEST it has felt since my hip pain began, years ago. I woke up this morning with ZERO pain. I was anxious to get to my morning practice and give it the acid test-would my hip lock up, and my gait return, to the limping mode ? ? ?
My coach often makes us run in to him to listen to a "chalk-talk". He does it deliberately to make us run a little. On my first oportunity to run in, I did so with a natural stride. I was wondering if my coach would notice? He did and seemed somewhat shocked. He said that I looked good.
It felt like the good old days, when I was a runner. I can feel that I am on the edge. I could easily return to limping with some emotional stress added to the mix. I'm excited about this breakthrough. I realize it's under my control and I'm learning how to better play the TMS ball, rather than it playing me.
I'm surprised at how short a period of time, (after many years of TMS affliction), it has taken be to de-condition my hip from the limp reflex, once I made my mind up. I am now curious to observe, how it will attempt to go back to limping or move around. One equivalent I am feeling, is positve energy, which I view as a good thing. It's the other side of the TMS coin in contrast to my usual tendancy to procrastinate, being a TMS perfectionist.
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tennis tom
USA
4749 Posts |
Posted - 10/13/2004 : 10:23:05
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Zach,
That's a good question. The seminal event was a pain shift, from my hip to my neck/shoulder for a week and back to my hip. I could feel TMS mov,e for no rational, physical reason. All I had done was drive 100 miles up the California coast. During those several hours the pain moved.
I re-read Dr.Sarno's small section in MBP about athritis and hips and accepted that it applied to me.
I disavowed the damaging imprinting of the many doctors's interpretation of my radiological report. I had believed, that when my hip hurt, it was because I was damaging the cartelege, with each
step I took while running. I did feel, that, I could regenerate the cartlege with rest, (which I did little of). I played through and around the pain and learned from it.
With the pain shift, I also shifted my thinking and discarded the thought that I was wearing out my hip cartlege and accpted TMS theory, that the pain was caused, by emotional factors, reducing blood flow to my hip region. With that thought, I went out and ran very slowly until the hip muscles im my right leg released and the synovial fluid started flowing in my hip joint and juiced it up.
The next day I went out on the tennis court and was able to sustain that thought and stride. The battle isn't over. I have to continue with the physical reconditioning of my hip to build up the lost confidence and some atrophy there.
Hope that helps.
tt |
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Some good news from a newbie
