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Uma
USA
31 Posts |
 Posted - 06/14/2011 : 12:04:04
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Hi,
I'm trying to understand what I need to let go of so I don't get stuck.
I do Feldenkrais lessons, restorative yoga (not manipulation or stretching, just relaxation), & acupuncture. These things help release tension and make life more tolerable, although i have to admit the effects are not long-lasting. I tell myself that I need the weekly acupuncture for health maintenance and the Feldy for spinal health... that I can still do this stuff and address TMS separately. Am I fooling myself? Must I stop ANY treatments for my "health" in addition to ones for my pain? I don't take any drugs or get massage/chiropractor/etc.
I've read differing views here with Feldenkrais/Alexander for movement re-education and posture, whether these conflict with the TMS approach. Also with acupuncture some think maybe it is OK.
I watched some of Monty H's videos and he got me thinking: (paraphrasing) if you are on the fence, thinking part of your pain disorder is physical and part of it is TMS, the pain disorder strategy has you and it's not gonna let go. And also if you think you can get away with the occasional treatment, the pain disorder strategy has you. BTW, when he says "pain disorder" is he talking just of pain or also all the other manifestations?
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art
1903 Posts |
Posted - 06/14/2011 : 12:54:51
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The conventional wisdom is you've got to commit fully. Seeking alternative treatments by definition is indicative of ambivalence. You really can't use TMS self-treatment as a kind of safety net. Likewise you an't commit to TMS while using physical treatments as a backup.
Fence sitting almost never works.
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Dave
USA
1864 Posts |
Posted - 06/15/2011 : 17:58:02
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You must stop all physical treatments designed to treat the pain. The reason is simple.
If you believe that you need physical treatments to resolve the symptoms, this implies that you believe there is a physical problem that needs to be fixed.
Recovery from TMS requires you to fully accept that the symptoms are caused by the brain and are rooted in the psychological realm.
Even if you tell yourself that you believe this, actions speak louder than words.
There may come a time where you can enjoy a relaxing massage without the underlying belief that it is providing relief from a muscular issue. There is nothing fundamentally wrong with trying to achieve better posture. However, it is a fine line, especially when just starting to treat your pain as TMS. The reconditioning process requires 100% commitment to the psychological explanation for the pain, and cessation of physical treatments. |
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Uma
USA
31 Posts |
Posted - 06/15/2011 : 22:52:14
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Re both your points about sitting on the fence:
Yeah I can see your points here. At least, I do want to see your points but acknowledge that I am still a bit on the fence with regards to being 100% committed to no treatments.
Regarding the terror of getting off the fence, I am reminded of this quote that really struck me, from Carolyn Myss in her video Why People Don't Heal and How They Can:
"In your gut, in your gut, you know, that if you make the kinds of changes...that your healing requires, a lot more than your body’s gonna change. A whole lot more than your body’s gonna change. You’re going to become an absolutely different person. And that difference can be more intimidating than walking through the disintegration of your body in an illness. That’s how frightening it is."
The more aware I become of my TMS and the more successes I have, the ways that I sabotage my own well-being are becoming more and more expensive, like living to please others or not disappoint others instead of living my own **** life. GRRRRRRR.  And this includes my own "contracts" with various healers or courses of study when I feel their time for me has passed but I don't want to make waves or "never finish what I started." |
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art
1903 Posts |
Posted - 06/16/2011 : 06:27:46
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The reason fence sitting does not work is that since you're still half convinced your pain is structural, you will continue to worry. WOrry is the fertile soil in which psychosomatic pain grows.
I can't give you certainty of course. Even if I could, it's not mine to give. I have troubles enough of my own. But I can tell you based on many years of experience that until you find a way to reduce your fear and worry, you'll continue to suffer. |
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Dave
USA
1864 Posts |
Posted - 06/17/2011 : 10:26:52
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You are on the right track, and that quote is very appropriate.
Many people cling to their physical diagnosis and chronic pain, because deep down, they are frightened to live without what has become such an important part of their life. They join support groups, they wallow in each others' misery, they feel connected to other sufferers. Their pain is validated by their social network. They have a purpose in life. The pain has become an important part of their personality. If they let it go, then their entire life is turned upside down, and they actually have to start dealing with all the stuff that the pain has been distracting them from.
This is a very difficult step to take, and many people are simply unable to take it. But it must be taken. |
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Uma
USA
31 Posts |
Posted - 06/17/2011 : 11:07:27
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"This is a very difficult step to take, and many people are simply unable to take it. But it must be taken."
Yeah: very difficult. I have had some experiences recently where then physical pain let go and the anger and hatred inside me (towards myself and others) was so great and as long as I stayed in contact with it, the pain wasn't really there. But it felt like, man, to not be in physical pain to I really have to go around feeling like I hate everyone? Or will that pass? It was stuffed in me for so long, is "feeling it" enough for it to change? Then something happens (maybe fear is triggered) then the pain returns and I've lost contact with the anger....
Recently I had a few days of much less pain (it is coming back at the moment though) where I started thinking: I have been in pain (and other symptoms) for soo long -- if I were to not have all this stuff going on in my body i have no idea what I'd want to be doing. This might mean changes in school, career, living situation, spiritual practice, relationships/family, everything. THAT is definitely scary. Might be easier to slip back into the chronic pain box!!! (which I have always seemed to do—so far—after a few days of relief)
Re the trap of the pain support network: Yeah, "fibromyalgia support group" is just about the last place I think I'd want to be! Ack!!!
Another Q about stopping all treatments designed to treat the pain: Is that why people here say painkillers are OK, because people wouldn't think they could cure the pain? In that sense, if one has the right mindset (believing the pain/symptoms are caused by inner tension), how would it be any different to use yoga or feldenkrais as a "natural painkiller" as long as it is not expected to cure anything? Simply because there is a structural element to them? |
Edited by - Uma on 06/17/2011 11:09:58 |
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tennis tom
USA
4749 Posts |
Posted - 06/17/2011 : 12:12:03
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quote:
Originally posted by Uma
... i have no idea what I'd want to be doing. This might mean changes in school, career, living situation, spiritual practice, relationships/family, everything. THAT is definitely scary. Might be easier to slip back into the chronic pain box!!! (which I have always seemed to do—so far—after a few days of relief)
Another Q about stopping all treatments designed to treat the pain: Is that why people here say painkillers are OK, because people wouldn't think they could cure the pain? In that sense, if one has the right mindset (believing the pain/symptoms are caused by inner tension), how would it be any different to use yoga or feldenkrais as a "natural painkiller" as long as it is not expected to cure anything? Simply because there is a structural element to them?
Taking a pain killer pill allows you to function while doing what you want to do or need to do to survive. Doing stuff like yoga, accupuncture, chiro, feldenkrais, are all very nice and I've done my fair share of them and a lot more. They are relaxing, cool and very nice, but suck up time and money. In your case they distract you from making the life decisions as you stated in the quote above.
If you didn't have some sort of life support system, then you would have to get out into life and support yourself and the pain would disappear into the background. Your main issue appears to be your ambivalence about what you want to do. As long as you have whatever support system to pay for the distractions afforded by treatments and classes, you won't need to deal with life decisions. To answer your question, aspirin are cheap and allow you to work and function.
DR. SARNO'S 12 DAILY REMINDERS:
www.youtube.com/watch?v=r0dKBFwGR0g
TAKE THE HOLMES-RAHE STRESS TEST
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holmes_and_Rahe_stress_scale
Some of my favorite excerpts from _THE DIVIDED MIND_ :
http://www.tmshelp.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=2605
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society." Jiddu Krishnamurti
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alexis
USA
596 Posts |
Posted - 06/17/2011 : 17:50:34
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quote:
Originally posted by art
The reason fence sitting does not work is that since you're still half convinced your pain is structural, you will continue to worry. WOrry is the fertile soil in which psychosomatic pain grows.
I agree with this for the most part, but the tricky thing here is that what you really want to achieve are two things:
1. Learn not to whip up psychosomatic symptoms, and accomplish this in part by not believing in them
2. Conquer the fear you feel about not only psychosomatic pains and illnesses, but also the fear and panic surrounding real illnesses
The traditional method proposed here is to conquer the symptoms by disbelieving in them. And this is highly effective. But a lot of folks here get stuck at that accomplishment, which is really as far as Sarno goes. The problem is that many then come back again and again with the question "Is this real?!?!" ... panic rising.
So the other part, that I usually think of as Step 2, is coming to a psychological place where you can deal with real illness with a healthy attitude. I think of this as Step 2, but in the world outside of TMS many people do this on its own...have to when faced with a very real diagnosis. So it doesn't have to be step 2.
And for myself I mixed these steps a bit more than is folk wisdom here. And for me commitment level to the belief in the psychosomatic nature of each and every symptom varied, and was not always full. But for me this worked. I don't know if it will for you, but whatever route you take realize that in the long run being emotionally sound just because you disbelieve in your illness, is not really being emotionally sound. It's a good first step, and worth achieving. But it's not the end of the process.
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mala
Hong Kong
774 Posts |
Posted - 06/17/2011 : 18:03:39
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quote:
Yeah: very difficult. I have had some experiences recently where then physical pain let go and the anger and hatred inside me (towards myself and others) was so great and as long as I stayed in contact with it, the pain wasn't really there. But it felt like, man, to not be in physical pain to I really have to go around feeling like I hate everyone? Or will that pass? It was stuffed in me for so long, is "feeling it" enough for it to change? Then something happens (maybe fear is triggered) then the pain returns and I've lost contact with the anger....
Uma, this is very interesting as I too have a lot of anger. When I was younger I used to be openly angry and never had any pain. The pain only manifested when I stopped being openly angry. This happened after I got married. Can you elaborate a bit on the kind of anger you feel both towards yourself and also towards others. Thanks
Good Luck & Good Health
Mala |
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golden_girl
United Kingdom
128 Posts |
Posted - 06/17/2011 : 19:55:34
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quote:
I have been in pain (and other symptoms) for soo long -- if I were to not have all this stuff going on in my body i have no idea what I'd want to be doing.
Re the trap of the pain support network: Yeah, "INTERSTITIAL CYSTITIS support group" is just about the last place I think I'd want to be! Ack!!!
I know this exactly. Twenty bloody years, from the age of 9 - who AM I without all this crap? I'd spend another 20 years to get to being free. I will. I'd prefer it to be two months, and I wish it could be. I wish it could be easy. But it seems it wasn't meant to be for me. So, for the next decades and beyond - here I go!
"F.E.A.R.
Forgive Everyone And Remember
For Everything A Reason"
Ian Brown |
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alexis
USA
596 Posts |
Posted - 06/18/2011 : 05:25:27
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quote:
Originally posted by golden_girl
quote:
Re the trap of the pain support network: Yeah, "INTERSTITIAL CYSTITIS support group" is just about the last place I think I'd want to be! Ack!!!
I know this exactly. Twenty bloody years, from the age of 9 - who AM I without all this crap? I'd spend another 20 years to get to being free. I will. I'd prefer it to be two months, and I wish it could be. I wish it could be easy. But it seems it wasn't meant to be for me. So, for the next decades and beyond - here I go!
Just be careful not to replace it with "TMS Support". This place is a great temporary step - a spring board. But don't makeyourself feel like a "member" here - and make sure your primary, real friends are healthy people who have nothing to do with this board or any other support group. People get trapped here just like they do with other "condition" identifiers. |
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art
1903 Posts |
Posted - 06/18/2011 : 09:06:53
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quote:
Originally posted by alexis
quote:
Originally posted by art
The reason fence sitting does not work is that since you're still half convinced your pain is structural, you will continue to worry. WOrry is the fertile soil in which psychosomatic pain grows.
I agree with this for the most part, but the tricky thing here is that what you really want to achieve are two things:
1. Learn not to whip up psychosomatic symptoms, and accomplish this in part by not believing in them
2. Conquer the fear you feel about not only psychosomatic pains and illnesses, but also the fear and panic surrounding real illnesses
The traditional method proposed here is to conquer the symptoms by disbelieving in them. And this is highly effective. But a lot of folks here get stuck at that accomplishment, which is really as far as Sarno goes. The problem is that many then come back again and again with the question "Is this real?!?!" ... panic rising.
So the other part, that I usually think of as Step 2, is coming to a psychological place where you can deal with real illness with a healthy attitude. I think of this as Step 2, but in the world outside of TMS many people do this on its own...have to when faced with a very real diagnosis. So it doesn't have to be step 2.
And for myself I mixed these steps a bit more than is folk wisdom here. And for me commitment level to the belief in the psychosomatic nature of each and every symptom varied, and was not always full. But for me this worked. I don't know if it will for you, but whatever route you take realize that in the long run being emotionally sound just because you disbelieve in your illness, is not really being emotionally sound. It's a good first step, and worth achieving. But it's not the end of the process.
Alexis, I very rarely hear this point made on the board, except by me. It's nice to have company. The thing is, we all will eventually get something real, something serious. Accepting this painful truth is the first step toward achieving some sort of meaningful peace and wisdom.
On a more down to earth level, as an aging runner I have to deal with constant questions as to whether something's "real" or not. Because runners *do* get injured, especially aging ones. I find myself having to make educated guesses a lot, while weighing not just the question of real vs. psychosomatic, but potentially serious vs. not so serious. With knee and foot related issues, I'll be more apt to "take a chance." With hamstrings and achilles, I proceed more cautiously...
It never hurts to take a week or two off. If you can't do that, then that's probably a cue that you're over invested in the activity, and that in itself often leads to problems, namely an overly vigilant, fearful attitude...And we all know what comes from that... |
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Dave
USA
1864 Posts |
Posted - 06/18/2011 : 13:46:59
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quote:
Originally posted by Uma
I have had some experiences recently where then physical pain let go and the anger and hatred inside me (towards myself and others) was so great and as long as I stayed in contact with it, the pain wasn't really there. But it felt like, man, to not be in physical pain to I really have to go around feeling like I hate everyone? Or will that pass? It was stuffed in me for so long, is "feeling it" enough for it to change? Then something happens (maybe fear is triggered) then the pain returns and I've lost contact with the anger....
This is a great experience and it should reaffirm the TMS diagnosis in your mind.
However, you must realize the anger you felt is not the same as the unconscious rage that causes TMS symptoms. These surface-level emotions are a smoke screen for deeper seeded feelings. Next time you are able to get in contact with this anger, try to stay with it and follow it deeper. Let is lead you into even more uncomfortable and forbidden areas. Try to figure out why you feel all this anger towards yourself and others. What is it covering up?
You can not find the true answer, but sticking with it and trying to find it is the key.
Don't look at it as a choice between the anger and the chronic pain. This is not it at all. It is not about having to feel these emotions all the time in order to gain relief. It is about accepting that repressed emotions are the root of the pain.
The fact that you were able to temporarily banish the pain by getting in touch with your emotions should send a strong message. If the pain was due to structural or physical issues, how could it just disappear like that? And why did it happen during a time when you were feeling something? This should give you more ammunition to allow yourself to ignore the symptoms when they appear, and not follow the path of fearing them. |
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alexis
USA
596 Posts |
Posted - 06/18/2011 : 19:36:31
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quote:
Originally posted by art
It never hurts to take a week or two off. If you can't do that, then that's probably a cue that you're over invested in the activity, and that in itself often leads to problems, namely an overly vigilant, fearful attitude...And we all know what comes from that...
Definitely - it seems to me that if the very thought of missing two weeks of any hobby threatens you, then you have other issues. And if any runner takes offense at the word "hobby" - same goes.
For some here learning to overcome "fake" illness is enough, but for most it's a partial cure at best. A healthy attitude to both real illness and, often more important, to uncertainty, are the true marks of success. |
Edited by - alexis on 06/18/2011 19:38:59 |
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golden_girl
United Kingdom
128 Posts |
Posted - 06/19/2011 : 19:49:12
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quote:
Originally posted by alexis
Just be careful not to replace it with "TMS Support". This place is a great temporary step - a spring board. But don't makeyourself feel like a "member" here - and make sure your primary, real friends are healthy people who have nothing to do with this board or any other support group. People get trapped here just like they do with other "condition" identifiers.
Yes, of course. That's a given, surely? My friends are all healthy (although I'm certain some have their bouts of TMS as do most of the population) and I spend the majority of my time around them. It's just helpful sometimes to read you're not the only one in the world who feels they're losing the plot.
"F.E.A.R.
Forgive Everyone And Remember
For Everything A Reason"
Ian Brown |
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alexis
USA
596 Posts |
Posted - 06/19/2011 : 20:07:15
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quote:
Originally posted by golden_girl
Yes, of course. That's a given, surely?
I'd like to think so, but I've unfortunately seen more than a handful of people trapped on that one. I agree, this board is a great reminder, so long as that's all its used for. |
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Uma
USA
31 Posts |
Posted - 06/23/2011 : 21:30:52
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Hi everyone, I'm out of town and have been without internet except my phone... I am really diggin' all the responses/conversation that came out of this thread and will have more to say next week.
Uma |
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Uma
USA
31 Posts |
Posted - 06/27/2011 : 19:40:56
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quote:
Originally posted by tennis tom
Taking a pain killer pill allows you to function while doing what you want to do or need to do to survive. Doing stuff like yoga, accupuncture, chiro, feldenkrais, are all very nice and I've done my fair share of them and a lot more. They are relaxing, cool and very nice, but suck up time and money. In your case they distract you from making the life decisions as you stated in the quote above.
If you didn't have some sort of life support system, then you would have to get out into life and support yourself and the pain would disappear into the background. Your main issue appears to be your ambivalence about what you want to do. As long as you have whatever support system to pay for the distractions afforded by treatments and classes, you won't need to deal with life decisions. To answer your question, aspirin are cheap and allow you to work and function.
Very perceptive!... there is a lot of ambivalence in my life. And the curse of being able to afford an extensive life support system and have enough spare time to utilize it!! I strongly suspect this has played a significant role in perpetuating all the ambivalence+symptoms.
I think subconsciously the life support system I create for myself makes me really *$#@ed off.
Nowadays in fact, I can actually become more aware of my anger when I am on someone's table.. which can keep me from getting the relief they are trying to provide. Like, I'm ANGRY at being a patient for so long, ANGRY at depending on them to help me, ANGRY at our unequal relationship, ANGRY that I know it is only temporary relief and that even as I get the treatment my mind can be causing more pain and symptoms... etc.
Even as I wrote this paragraph my pain started decreasing and my breathing got deeper!!!
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Uma
USA
31 Posts |
Posted - 06/27/2011 : 19:46:35
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quote:
Originally posted by alexis
whatever route you take realize that in the long run being emotionally sound just because you disbelieve in your illness, is not really being emotionally sound. It's a good first step, and worth achieving. But it's not the end of the process.
Thanks for your comments. It's an interesting point and surely we all have to face real bodily issues at some point. But for me at the moment I feel it can actually be dangerous to believe in a real physical problem. I feel like I can't go both ways. Maybe once I master one thing perhaps I can get better at the other but right now if I buy into a physical diagnosis like with my chest pains or hot flashes or dizziness or fatigue or infections or whatever, I think it is supporting my repression of and contact with emotions and perpetuating the symtoms. Maybe I am missing something.. or maybe for beginning TMS students we must be like race horses with blinders on and pretend we didn't hear your very interesting points!!
Anyone have any opinion about that? |
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Uma
USA
31 Posts |
Posted - 06/27/2011 : 19:51:44
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quote:
Originally posted by mala
Uma, this is very interesting as I too have a lot of anger. When I was younger I used to be openly angry and never had any pain. The pain only manifested when I stopped being openly angry. This happened after I got married. Can you elaborate a bit on the kind of anger you feel both towards yourself and also towards others. Thanks
I often feel angry if I feel trapped in a conversation or if I feel like someone is trying to control me. I feel angry when I get impatient or when I feel like I have to hold in how I really think or feel around someone. Or do something I don't want to do. Or when I pretend to want to do something I really don't want to do. Or when I sense someone else is untruthful or not truly listening. I think a lot of it probably stems from not being able/willing/knowing how to stand up for myself and set healthy boundaries. Toward myself I feel angry when I am not perfect, when I feel like I don't look good enough or act right or say the right thing or feel the right way. Or when I am confused. Or when I cause pain to myself or others. Thanks for asking.
Your comment about not being openly angry around your husband reminded me of some of the examples in The Divided Mind, of the various patients who had taken anger control classes or learned to "control their temper" but then it was coming out in other ways (symptoms).
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Needing help getting on board 100% (re treatments)
