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pspa123
672 Posts |
 Posted - 07/05/2012 : 09:55:59
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| I hope this doesn't come across as silly, but it seems to me that if one takes to its logical extreme the notion that all chronic muscle pain has psychological origin, there should be no point in stretching to relieve tight muscles, and indeed it may be counterproductive as Dr. Sarno cautions not to treat physical symptoms physically. Common sense tells me, however, that it should be OK and even beneficial to stretch. Thoughts appreciated. |
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SteveO
USA
272 Posts |
Posted - 07/05/2012 : 10:04:53
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That was one of my first questions too. I contacted Dr. Sopher sometime around 2002 and he said it's ok to stretch but only because it feels good, never for pain relief. He was right, it worked for me.
So it's very important to affirm in your brain why you are performing a certain act. Never move for pain reduction, move for good health only.
SO |
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sarah430
37 Posts |
Posted - 07/05/2012 : 10:09:30
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So doing something physical - such as stretching, yoga, massage, etc. to help relieve the pain is not okay? Even if you acknowledge that it is not a cure?
Trying to understand the difference between "feeling good" and "pain relief"..... |
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stevep
106 Posts |
Posted - 07/05/2012 : 10:13:39
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quote:
Originally posted by sarah430Trying to understand the difference between "feeling good" and "pain relief".....
I have been very much struggling with this notion myself. |
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SteveO
USA
272 Posts |
Posted - 07/05/2012 : 11:51:56
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Yes, it is not ok to do these things to relieve pain even if you acknowledge it is not a cure. It is the mental intent that means everything.
Never include a therapeutic modality like yoga, or stretching, or running, or etc. with the purpose of relieving pain. To semi-quote Dr. Sarno, "you have to have both feet in the psychological ballpark, you can't have one foot in the physical ballpark and one foot in the psychological ballpark."
Do all of these things for health's sake alone, such as calming mental chatter, flexibility, and a feeling of wellness.
Does that make sense? I apologize, sometimes I forget that people are in various stages of gathering knowledge and I just respond to a question. I'm glad you asked for clarification. A response doesn't mean anything if it isn't understood.
That was a great question and it should be noted that someone might heal through trying a modality but it's most likely a placebo result and will come back soon. Full integration is vital to deep healing.
The modality should not be to fool the person but to alter the brain's behavior. If you use a modality to heal then you have presumed a physical problem that more deeply ingrains a structural defect and slows TMS/permanent healing.
Your brain knows if you're thinking there's a structural problem. You fortify this notion by performing healing rituals.
Steve |
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PJ77
United Kingdom
44 Posts |
Posted - 07/05/2012 : 12:00:52
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Excellent question pspa123 and excellent answer SteveO.
I am sure there are a lot of people like me who do start doubting there must be some sort of physical problem, but it is clear to overcome TMS one must think 100% psychological as anything in between will simply not work. I have constantly been stretching to ease my pain but I realize now this only adds more doubt and confusion. I will now stretch because it feels good and for nothing else.
Thanks SteveO - i have also bought your book and waiting for delivery - cannot wait! |
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Ace1
USA
1040 Posts |
Posted - 07/07/2012 : 06:09:18
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| Actually in my opinion stretching is not in anyway needed or helpful. I think if you have the need to stretch, then at that point you have some TMS going on and you need to calm your unconscious mind by affirmations visualizations or self talk. When I'm feeling good I feel NO need to do anything physical to feel good I don't need stretching, massage, or anything less like that. |
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pspa123
672 Posts |
Posted - 07/07/2012 : 21:46:51
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| It seems to me that especially in our sedentary society, one can get stiff and tight just from sitting too darn much, and that it may have nothing to do with TMS. The first thing a cat does when it wakes up is to stretch. People have been doing yoga for centuries, and when one feels tight it can feel really good just to stretch out, period. In my brief (and continuing) foray into TMS after finally giving up on the world of physical modalities for my neck and leg issues, I seem to be encountering some rather rigid and to my mind extreme thinking. In my admitted naivite, I can't help but wonder if some folks are taking the message "think psychologically" too far in attributing virtually everything under the sun to TMS and denying the physical altogether? |
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Ace1
USA
1040 Posts |
Posted - 07/09/2012 : 06:35:11
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Pspa123,
Your not far along enough to understand, be patient and youll see if you look hard enough. When you wake up and stretch thats a completely different thing, then streching at the computer, etc, when your probably tense from doing what ever your doing at the computer. In other words there is nothing wrong with the physical action, but the reason for doing it is what we are talking about. Good luck |
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art
1903 Posts |
Posted - 07/09/2012 : 10:27:30
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quote:
Originally posted by Ace1
Pspa123,
Your not far along enough to understand, be patient and youll see if you look hard enough. When you wake up and stretch thats a completely different thing, then streching at the computer, etc, when your probably tense from doing what ever your doing at the computer. In other words there is nothing wrong with the physical action, but the reason for doing it is what we are talking about. Good luck
I agree with your opinion on stretching 100 percent. I don't see monkeys touching their toes or otherwise stretching their hamstrings. IN fact, there are some studies now shlwing stretching before activity is a net negative. |
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Dave
USA
1864 Posts |
Posted - 07/09/2012 : 10:28:22
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quote:
Originally posted by pspa123
In my admitted naivite, I can't help but wonder if some folks are taking the message "think psychologically" too far in attributing virtually everything under the sun to TMS and denying the physical altogether?
Of course not every physical symptom has a psychological origin. But it is a very slippery slope.
If you believe your body is "stiff" due to certain activities (or lack thereof) and you "need" to stretch or perform other physical treatment in order to gain relief, then the message you send to your unconscious mind is not conducive to recovery from TMS.
TMS or not, symptoms generally fall into two categories: (1) manifestation of a real structural problem, injury, or disease; (2) a benign sensation not caused by an underlying physical problem. If your back is stiff, and you have ruled out serious structural problems and disease with a thorough medical examination, then it is safe to ignore the symptom. Whether the stiffness is caused by sitting at your chair all day in front of a computer, or psychological triggers, is really not important. The most important thing is to accept the symptom as benign, refuse to give it any power over you, and go about your life as if it did not exist.
If you choose to stretch in order to loosen the stiff muscle, then (1) you are paying attention to the symptom; (2) you are sending a message to your unconscious that you believe the symptom can be "fixed" by performing some physical treatment. Both are counterproductive to the long-term reconditioning process that is necessary to recover from TMS.
Things are different if you are 10 years into TMS recovery, have minimized the symptoms and have the proper mindset. If you choose to stretch because it feels good, for overall health reasons, and not to "fix" anything, then it should not cause any harm. But if you are not yet at the point where you have fully accepted TMS at an unconscious level (which takes a lot of time and work) then stretching can be counterproductive to recovery. |
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pspa123
672 Posts |
Posted - 07/09/2012 : 13:56:38
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| I see the logic of what you guys are saying, but I can also see that improving flexibility as part of an overall exercise program could be completely consistent with an approach that reinforces the message that there is nothing wrong with oneself and that one should not limit one's activities due to wrong thinking that one is injured or has structural problems. I can't imagine that for the athletically inclined, flexibility, range of motion etc. are not good things. I think the author of the book Backsense, which is a book based on TMS principles, takes this approach. |
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Hillbilly
USA
385 Posts |
Posted - 07/09/2012 : 17:50:16
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pspa13,
Do your stretching. It isn't going to hurt you. If it feels good, do it. If you buy Tsatsouline's or Kurz's books on the subject you will realize that inflexibility is a byproduct of our old friend, muscle tension, which is a byproduct of fear and negative thinking. If that sounds familiar, it should.
___________________________________________________________________________________________
"Failures do what is tension relieving, while winners do what is goal achieving."
Dennis Waitley
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Dave
USA
1864 Posts |
Posted - 07/12/2012 : 11:48:51
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quote:
Originally posted by pspa123
I see the logic of what you guys are saying, but I can also see that improving flexibility as part of an overall exercise program could be completely consistent with an approach that reinforces the message that there is nothing wrong with oneself and that one should not limit one's activities due to wrong thinking that one is injured or has structural problems.
You are absolutely right. If you truly believe that on an unconscious level. Do you? You cannot possibly know.
This is why in the early stages of TMS recovery it can be contradictory. Actions speak louder to your unconscious mind than thoughts and beliefs. |
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Is it OK to stretch?
