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maccafan
130 Posts |
 Posted - 07/11/2012 : 17:49:31
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Dr. Sarno includes aging as one of the sources of rage that exists in the unconscious mind. On page 28 of “The Mindbody Prescription” he explains that we are unconsciously enraged by the envitability of death. He says that this is often responsible for the onset of pain in men and women in their fifties, sixties and seventies.
This doesn’t surprise me and it is something that I’ve thought about a lot lately. I’m also 61 years old (or young) like some others on this board. I’ve never thought too much about my age or aging until I hit 60. Then I thought … uh-oh … time is running out, I really do have an expiration date.
I’m glad that I was born when I was because I got to grow up in a time of great music including Elvis, The Beatles, and all the rock-n-roll, soul and blues. I got to experience the really cool cars of the fifties and sixties. And I realize now that I’m also glad that I grew up in a time where the media (tv, movies, news, internet) wasn’t shoving graphic violence down my throat every minute of every day.
The thing that bothers me the most about my mortality is wondering how and when I’m going to die because I know I will not have much control over this. It’s not so much that I’m going to die because I don’t want to live forever on this planet. I’ve seen enough selfishness, greed, cruelty, stupidity and human and animal suffering. Mortality and how it happens enrages me consciously and so I’m sure my unconscious reservoir of rage is growing.
I do not want to die slowly in a nursing home, or from some long drawn out disease like ALS, etc. Or from being injured and paralysed for years and years. And I don’t want to get sick and die due to doctor or hospital error like we hear about more and more today. These kinds of things really make me angry. None of us should have to die from any of these ways.
Oregon , Washington and Montana (New Hampshire is considering it)has the Death With Dignity Act. This would help in some ways. At least we would have some type of a choice in certain aspects. Now in most states you have no choice at all. Also Switzerland, Albania, Belgium and Luxembourg allow euthanasia.
I’m not intending to start a religious debate or upset anyone. I’m saying that I personally think there should be a choice for the multitudes of us who do want a choice. I know this would calm my conscious mind and lower the reservoir of rage in my unconscious mind. I could relax and enjoy the rest of my life better. If you check the index of The Divided Mind and The Mindbody Prescription you will find more references to aging and TMS.
And also on a lighter note have any of you seen the YouTube video of the talking dog (Ultimate Dog Tease)? It will make you smile and laugh out loud! This dog is adorable and has such an expressive face. It really helps the Rage/Soothe ratio!
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Edited by - maccafan on 07/11/2012 17:56:42 |
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Dr. Zafirides
189 Posts |
Posted - 07/11/2012 : 21:42:55
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Maccafan,
I am a psychiatrist and TMS practitioner. Over the years, I have developed my own approach and interpretation of the emotional basis and conflict involved in TMS. I come at it from an Existential - not strictly Freudian - perspective.
My belief is that the existential anxiety of the human condition is the emotional fuel for the pain of TMS.
I believe the pain comes when we get too close to the givens of of our existence, they are:
1. Mortality
2. Existential Isolation (Aloneness)
3. Meaning and Purpose
4. Existential Freedom
These, in my opinion, are the quintessential conflicts that determine all our behavior - both healthy and unhealthy - including the pain of TMS.
To learn more about my approach and perspective, please feel free to listen to my 4/18/12 podcast on this topic:
http://www.thehealthymind.com/2012/04/18/existential-therapy-how-anxiety-leads-to-physical-pain/
I go into more detail about the relationship between existential concerns and the pain of TMS.
I hope you find the information helpful.
Kindly,
Dr. Zafirides
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tennis tom
USA
4749 Posts |
Posted - 07/12/2012 : 08:19:43
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quote:
Originally posted by maccafan
I’m glad that I was born when I was because I got to grow up in a time of great music including Elvis, The Beatles, and all the rock-n-roll, soul and blues. I got to experience the really cool cars of the fifties and sixties. And I realize now that I’m also glad that I grew up in a time where the media (tv, movies, news, internet) wasn’t shoving graphic violence down my throat every minute of every day.
Nice post Maccafan! I agree the 50's and 60's were the golden age of the Pax Americana, the empire is now coming apart at the seams. If you're ever in frisco, look me up, I'll show you my Avalon/Fillmore poster collection and take you for a tour of the town in my "55 bird I'm driving through the fog these days.
Cheers
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Edited by - tennis tom on 07/12/2012 13:03:00 |
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maccafan
130 Posts |
Posted - 07/12/2012 : 13:45:50
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I forgot to mention that I think aging may affect men and women differently when it comes to TMS. It's not just the more prevalent thoughts of mortality but our bodies are changing. Appearance of aging (with all the pressure from the media causing public opinion) seems to affect women more than most men. For example it's more accepted for men to get grey hair and wrinkles because it makes them look distinguished. Most women run out and get a dye job at the first sign of graying hair and many women head for the botox and facelifts for the wrinkles. I got lucky in this one regard because for some reason my hair color is still strawberry blonde and I still have my freckles. Anyway we women have to go through "the change" as well. And I've long wondered if TMS plays a part in this. "The Pause" can physically cause emotional upheaval and really uncomfortable physical symptoms for women. I'm free as a bird from this now but I still have spells of warm flushes not hot flashes and I think TMS has played a big hand in this. Men also go through a male equivalent of "the change". Their testosterone levels drop and that affects many aspects of a man's life. All this is enraging to the unconscious so does TMS jump on the bandwagon and take advantage of these hormonal changes making the physical symptoms worse to create more of a distraction from our unconscious turmoil about aging? Does the appearance of aging in women and men also cause more rage in the unconscious mind? I think it does for most of us and this can lead to possible physical symptoms.
Dr. Z - I listened to your pod cast and you explained very well how emotions can cause physical symptoms. Even though I agree with Dr. Sarno that rage is the main emotion in our unconscious that causes the need for physical distractions I also agree with you about anxiety being a leading emotion as well. All of us have anxiety and the four reasons you listed as core anxiety makes a lot of sense to me. Mortality is on my mind the most lately. When I was younger and like most of us, I never felt finite and that getting old was way off in the far away future. Well, now that far away future is definitely closing in and I¡¦m forced to think about it and deal with it. The meaning and purpose of life has been on mind since I was a teenager. I remember thinking ... What's it all about Alfie? (if you're my age you remember that movie and song). But even though I agree with you that existential core anxiety does cause physical symptoms I still think at least for me that the rage in my unconscious mind about these ultimate concerns is what pushes it over the edge and it decides that I must have physical painful distractions. Dr. Sarno says to think of unconscious rage in volcanic terms and that just really clicked things in to place for me. It would take something really dangerous and threatening to the unconscious to cause it to freak out and start creating such horrible symptoms to distract us from letting this explosion hit our conscious mind. How do you feel about quilt being an existential core anxiety?
Tennis Tom - GROOOVY! I really like the psychedelic artwork on these posters. Bill Graham put on some great concerts at the Avalon Ballroom and Fillmore. I met Grace Slick once in 1990. I had gone to Washington D.C. for the March for the Animals and she performed on the lawn of the Capitol. She sang a song about a Panda bear and how they are almost extinct. After the march and demonstration I went to a party and she was there having some vegan treats. I really wanted to talk to her and tell her how much I liked her song but I felt very shy. But she was really friendly and we got to talking and then I couldn't shut up. Ha ha What color is your 55 t bird? You have good taste in cars. When I was 18 I had a faded red 58 Rambler with fins and one night my brother who was home on leave from Viet Nam put stick on flowers all over it! Thanks for the invite and if I ever make it to that side of the country I'll let you know. Did you have California Dreamin' playing when you were driving through the fog or White Rabbit???
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Edited by - maccafan on 07/12/2012 13:54:43 |
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HMG
9 Posts |
Posted - 07/12/2012 : 15:06:16
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| maccafan...I agree on the menopause and TMS. I am dealing with that now. I was pretty clueless on menopause and read an article that stated that incontinence was a symptom of menopause. It scared the %^&* out of me. Sure enough 2 weeks later I began having symptoms of a bladder infection. I was treated with antibiotics while I waited for the lab tests. Lab work came back negative and I was then treated for vaginitis as I still had symptoms. After 6 weeks of pain I went to a urologist who said my bladder was fine but I had tight pelvic muscles. After I read the article on menopause, I subconsciously begin tightening my muscles. I went to a pelvic floor therapist twice, before reading Sarno's book and stopped treatment and started journaling. It took almost a year to get things back to normal. I have recently become obsessed again with this thought and have looked up statitics constantly for the last 2 weeks. I am in a downward spiral of anxiety but thankfully have been able to keep things somewhat relaxed "down there". I started seeing my therapist again and he said I won't be able to stop the thoughts but when I start having anxiety about it to replace the thoughts with some activity. I am trying to do this but I can't seem to stop the "googling" when I know it is only causing me trouble...Any suggestions for stopping this obsessive thought/action pattern. |
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Bugbear
United Kingdom
152 Posts |
Posted - 07/12/2012 : 15:44:33
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HMG: stop googling symptoms and start bookmarking, reading and listening to all the resources and links people on this forum have provided over the years. That should keep you busy for a good long while. I havent listened to it yet myself but you might like to start with the podcast that Dr Zafiridis mentions above.
Maccafan: loved the dog clip. Laughing is good. I definitely don't do enough of it. Enjoyed hearing about your meet up with Grace Slick. An old friend of mine used to idolize her and would have been so jealous. As for me the most famous person I was ever in the same room with was the late Linda Lovelace. But that's another story.
The women in my family live long lives. I am 52. I reckon I've got another 40 years on the clock so I will save my thoughts on mortality for the distant future. At the moment I am too preoccupied with the anger, guilt, shame etc.
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tennis tom
USA
4749 Posts |
Posted - 07/12/2012 : 16:00:14
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quote:
Originally posted by Bugbear
As for me the most famous person I was ever in the same room with was the late Linda Lovelace. But that's another story.
I for one would like to hear that story!
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maccafan
130 Posts |
Posted - 07/12/2012 : 16:45:31
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HMG - Sounds like you already know what to do because you've already succeeded once. You can do it again. It proves that you've got this stuff figured out and just need to reinforce it. I agree with your therapist about activity. Most of us on this board have been there about the googling. It has gotten me into trouble a few times. Big trouble, just scared me silly and made everything worse. You're urologist said that your pelvic muscles are tight. This makes all kinds of sense. Your pelvic muscles are in spasm and squeezing your bladder etc. Spasming muscles push on nerves and make them sting and burn. This can mimic a bladder infection. I wish I had had a urologist explain this to me when I was going through what you are. Muscle spasms = TMS. Be careful about being treated for vaginitis because the meds/treatment side effects can cause vaginitis. But anyway you've been checked out and everything is good except for the spasms. Some doctors seem to lump any thing they can't diagnose for sure into a vaginitis. I do believe now that TMS made the monthly cramping worse for me. Menopause is natural and normal. It's not a lot of fun at all but for most females it passes and things settled down for good. When I was growing up I looked forward to it and I was right to because it's great now. That's turned out to be one of the better things about getting "older". The only way I could stop obcessing was to stop looking up things to obcess about. And one of the main ways I made Dr. Sarno's information work for me is I did a lot of talking to my mind. I mean I talked out loud to it. I remember just getting so fed up with my suffering that I cussed it out and cussed it out repeatedly. I got mad and I just wasn't going to take it anymore.
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Edited by - maccafan on 07/12/2012 16:48:11 |
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HMG
9 Posts |
Posted - 07/12/2012 : 19:16:27
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maccafan...thanks for the insight. When I went through this the first time, I did yell at my brain, even beat pillows I got so mad at it  Now I seem mad at myself for allowing it to happen again and to such a consuming way. I have had very few menopause symptoms so far and hope to be one of the fortune ones but that small line I read about incontinence just freaked me out....Maybe I have "control issues" or maybe I can't believe my body will betray me...who knows. What I do know, is that it is preventing me from living life now and it hasn't even happened to me....Grrrrrr  Like Mark Twain said...I have lived a terrible life and some of it actually happened |
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art
1903 Posts |
Posted - 07/13/2012 : 19:45:46
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Dr Z. writes:
Posted - 07/11/2012 : 21:42:55
Maccafan,
"I am a psychiatrist and TMS practitioner. Over the years, I have developed my own approach and interpretation of the emotional basis and conflict involved in TMS. I come at it from an Existential - not strictly Freudian - perspective.
My belief is that the existential anxiety of the human condition is the emotional fuel for the pain of TMS.
I believe the pain comes when we get too close to the givens of of our existence, they are:
1. Mortality
2. Existential Isolation (Aloneness)
3. Meaning and Purpose
4. Existential Freedom"
I agree with this wholeheartedly. It took me a long while to strip it all down, but this is precisely what I've come to believe. My problem is that at 61, I'm suddenly getting things that I have no choice but to treat as authentic injuries. e.g. bursitis, which given the swelling involved seems hard to attribute to TMS. Granted, they might be stress induced to a great degree, but I can't just ignore in the way I've become used to doing as a long time tms'er. |
Edited by - art on 07/13/2012 19:46:21 |
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maccafan
130 Posts |
Posted - 07/14/2012 : 19:24:29
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Hi Art,
My post was mainly about aging and mortality. Dr. S wrote about the Six Basic Needs that we have. He wrote, "To fulfill our basic needs we put ourselves under pressure, which is enraging to the self. Or we become frustrated and angry because some of the needs are not adequately met." The sixth basic need that he talked about is the need "To be Immortal-(we are unconsciously enraged by the inevitablility of death)." And he goes on to say, "This last category is sometimes one of the most subtle. However, it is often responsible for the onset of pain in men and women in their fifties, sixties and seventies. Aging is enraging, something I had never thought about until I experienced it. Some of my patients have been aware of it but most did not realize the intensity of their inner feelings on the subject." And I can't find it right now but he does talk about when people become elderly it is harder to decide whether their physical symptoms are due to true aging or TMS or both and that you have to be careful and check more things out medically. But he has always said to get checked out first if a symptom continues or seems really serious.
I understand what you and Dr. Z are saying about emotions. But the way I understand the TMS information and what has wroked for me is that the child primitive id becomes enraged about these painful emotions and doesn't want to feel them. So it instigates physical pain instead as a distraction from them. The unconscious also feels these emotions are threatening and dangerous so they have to be kept repressed by the distraction of conscious physical pain. But I agree it's the emotions that starts it all.
I'm glad you had the swelling checked out and that you made it through the clot. I'm impressed that you are a runner. I've never been able to run down the street much less run for miles. We're only 61 and I sure as heck don't feel elderly. But whenever I do get to thinking too much about my age I just think of The Rolling Stones who are still enjoying what they love to do and are talking about their 50th aniversary tour. Sir Paul McCartney just turned 70 and he's still doing sold out concerts around the world. And Betty White inspires me too. She's still cracking people up at almost 91. Plus I can still do the "funky chicken" to "In A Gadda Da Vida" by Iron Butterfly!
Maccafan
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balto
839 Posts |
Posted - 07/17/2012 : 17:53:13
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quote:
Originally posted by Dr. Zafirides
I believe the pain comes when we get too close to the givens of of our existence, they are:
1. Mortality
2. Existential Isolation (Aloneness)
3. Meaning and Purpose
4. Existential Freedom
I think the #2 on this list is the worst. If we're not lonely and isolated, we wouldn't have much time to think about the other 3.
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No, I don't know everything. I'm just here to share my experience. |
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tennis tom
USA
4749 Posts |
Posted - 07/19/2012 : 09:04:36
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| FYI, SteveO has a good couple of pages on aging, pages 89 and 90. It begins with, "The KING of TRIGGERS may well be the AGING TRIGGER, a.k.a. the NOT SO HAPPY BIRTHDAY TRIGGER..." |
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maccafan
130 Posts |
Posted - 07/19/2012 : 10:12:57
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Thanks TT,
I've been meaning to buy SteveO's book. Your post is just the nudge I needed.
Maccafan |
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tennis tom
USA
4749 Posts |
Posted - 07/19/2012 : 12:39:55
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Yo Mac,
You'll love it! It's both a TMS textbook and the memoir of a long term sufferer's journey out of pain.
Cheers |
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Aging, Mortality and TMS
