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tennis tom
USA
4746 Posts |
 Posted - 12/21/2014 : 23:26:05
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quote:
Originally posted by Mac1986
Is tms always based on Past emotions or do I need do be working on current emotions as well. For example how pissed I am about having this at age 28 and not being able to work. Im wondering if tms starts with an initial injury of some sort then emotions take over and the pain continues? Thanks
TMS is based on CHILDHOOD, DAILY LIFE, & PERSONALITY. Nicole J. Sachs has a good chart explaining this, sort of a TMS spread sheet in her TMS book THE MEANING OF TRUTH on page 172.
Yes, TMS can start with an injury that morphs into chronic TMS pain. Or it can come without a triggering injury, just waking up one morning with a sore neck from the proverbial "sleeping wrong". |
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Dave
USA
1864 Posts |
Posted - 12/22/2014 : 15:01:46
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quote:
Originally posted by Mac1986
Is tms always based on Past emotions or do I need do be working on current emotions as well. For example how pissed I am about having this at age 28 and not being able to work.
This is circular reasoning. Emotions directly related to the symptoms are not what you need to explore. This means you are focusing on the symptoms, which is contradictory to treating them as TMS.
The emotions you are trying to uncover have to do with the pressures you put on yourself to be a "goodist" or "perfectionist" and how they are in conflict with the "child inside you" who just wants to be left alone and taken care of. It is about the things that make you angry inside that you do not realize or want to accept. |
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Ace1
USA
1040 Posts |
Posted - 12/27/2014 : 18:36:14
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| I respectfully disagree that the emotions related to the symptoms have nothing to do with perpetuating the symptoms. They actually add on top of the other stuff in ones life and it becomes a vicious cycle. The person is disgusted their current state and abilities. They strain with tasks of daily life. The stuff that was there before is still there but there is so much more with the symptoms and the fear of them. That is why you must do nothing but accept the symptoms and understand why they are there. That hopefully will nullify the worsening caused by the symptoms themselves. In addition you must try to figure out what else might be exciting your nerves enough to be contributing to symptoms. |
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Dave
USA
1864 Posts |
Posted - 12/29/2014 : 09:58:53
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quote:
Originally posted by Ace1
I respectfully disagree that the emotions related to the symptoms have nothing to do with perpetuating the symptoms.
Actually that's not what I suggested. I said such emotions should not be explored as an underlying cause of TMS.
"Thinking psychologically" means exploring the potential hidden emotions that are leading the mind to manufacture the symptoms. These feelings are by definition not conscious. They are not the same as daily stressors that we are aware of.
Being "pissed" about the symptoms is certain to help perpetuate the them primarily because you are focused on them. However, it would be circular reasoning to assume that this anger is itself a reason for the TMS to occur in the first place. It is not so simple. The underlying reasons for TMS stem from deeper hidden thoughts and feelings that we are not realizing or accepting, that are contributing to the pressure we put on ourselves to be the person we feel we should be. |
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Ace1
USA
1040 Posts |
Posted - 12/30/2014 : 19:51:11
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I think Dave what you have listed is exactly the pure tms model explanation. This goes along with the theory that the mind is trying to protect one from the hidden emotions by diverting ones attention by bodily symptoms. I don't think there is an intelligent unconscious mind doing this, it just does not make sense. In my clinic, tms is almost always followed by more serious conditions like cancer, heart dz etc. This to me implies, if they are truly related, that there was no protection at all by the mind, but there was a progression to worsening universally.
I think that the reason the focus on the symptoms make the symptoms worse is because they actually strain or hype one nerves more. As the focus on symptoms continues, the more and more the nerves are sensitized. This is on top of whatever has sensitized the nerves before. I think that in some instances, the sole reason the person has symptoms is because of the hidden fear of the symptoms themselves and many who have had dramatic cures by dr sarnos book have lost this fear alone with no other changes.
I respect if many on this board believe in the pure tms model. Just in my case and in the observation of my patients it does not fit very well. |
Edited by - Ace1 on 12/30/2014 19:52:54 |
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miehnesor
USA
430 Posts |
Posted - 12/30/2014 : 23:11:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Ace1
I think Dave what you have listed is exactly the pure tms model explanation. This goes along with the theory that the mind is trying to protect one from the hidden emotions by diverting ones attention by bodily symptoms. I don't think there is an intelligent unconscious mind doing this, it just does not make sense. In my clinic, tms is almost always followed by more serious conditions like cancer, heart dz etc. This to me implies, if they are truly related, that there was no protection at all by the mind, but there was a progression to worsening universally.
Ace- As a TMS purist I have to disagree with the notion that the unconscious mind lacks the intelligence mentioned here. My case is a clear example of how the symptoms are a direct result of the proximity of repressed rage in the unconscious and the fear of that rage surfacing. The closer to surfacing the greater the intensity of symptoms in a desperate attempt to keep the feelings repressed. Also the protection the unconscious mind is involved with here has nothing to do with more serious illnesses such as cancer but is strictly concerned with protection from the unconscious rage. Also I have often thought that the best way for someone suffering from TMS can avoid more serious illness is to connect with those threatening feelings and restore some sense of peace in the mind. Yes this is difficult to do but it can have enormous health benefits IMHO. |
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Dave
USA
1864 Posts |
Posted - 01/03/2015 : 12:49:44
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quote:
Originally posted by Ace1
...This goes along with the theory that the mind is trying to protect one from the hidden emotions by diverting ones attention by bodily symptoms.
True, this is Dr. Sarno's original metaphor. I have never considered it to be an accurate scientific explanation of the process. I believe we do not truly know the details of how TMS works, that it is beyond our current comprehension of the brain. Dr. Sarno's model provides a framework for recovery. It provides a means for us to turn our focus away from the symptoms and attempt to address underlying psychological issues that may be part of the reason why our mind is generating them.
I believe it is not important to understand the physiological details of what causes TMS symptoms. Understanding and analyzing the science of TMS intellectually does nothing to cure the symptoms, and could actually be counterproductive.
Regardless of what metaphor one uses to characterize the process, the key is acceptance that the symptoms are manufactured and not due to any underlying structural problem. This eliminates the fear that something is seriously wrong and that it might continue or get worse. The symptoms become a nuisance that we just have to deal with. Over time, the fact that we are no longer focused on the symptoms or in fear of them leads them to fade away.
I do believe there is some "intelligence" to the process, as the mind sometimes makes obvious attempts to fight back. It might up the intensity of the symptoms just as we are learning to accept them. It might give us new symptoms that may be more successful at grabbing our attention and generating fear. Whether or not the mind is attempting to "protect us" is something that I'm afraid we will never be able to prove or disprove. Note, Dr. Sarno does not claim the mind is protecting us from progression of the symptoms, or from other disease or illness, but from experiencing the unconscious rage. Again, it is only a metaphor, but I think it is an important detail.
Do you use a different approach with your patients and if so, have you had success in stopping the symptoms from perpetuating or worsening? |
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Ace1
USA
1040 Posts |
Posted - 01/04/2015 : 08:26:57
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Thanks Dave for your response
Yes, I try to approach my pts and myself from a somewhat different angle. I try to approach it from what I have listed on the list I made "keys to healing". I continue to learn more as time goes on through myself and my pts. Mostly from myself. The unfortunate truth is with the patient population I see, is they are so far deep in the tms that it is extremely hard to reverse them. Then comes the difficulty of the process of insight and changing engrained habits This comes along with many people who will not believe this or do not want to put in the time it takes. Then there are those who do this superficially for a while and give up. I also have only 15 mins with each patient and it is very hard to be able to give all the info needed and practice standard medical treatment. Despite all of this I do have still a few success stories which is what makes my job worthwhile. Most are in that patients with mild Illnesses but I have a couple who have had or have had cancer.
I think the most important thing I got from dr sarno is that something in my behavior/thinking is leading or has lead me to be ill. Also that doing anything directly about the symptoms is counterproductive. Knowing this allowed me to keep analyzing my behavior to see what it is. Habit makes behavior unconscious (such as driving a car), this make the process that much more difficult.
When I took dr sarno literally I was making no progress, this is bc I kept thinking there was some intelligent process that if only I knew about it, it would then give up its strategy. I would continue think and behave in the same way and this kept me the same. I come to see that the real issue is sensitized/strained nerves that are conditioned to become this way in various conditioned situations. I think almost all of the phenomenon observed, such as worsening of symptoms with working on tms, can be explained with this view. Your supposed to get your mind comfortable again with these various conditioned situations. You go into them and do nothing about the symptoms and typically the symptoms ramp up. If you continue with this approach the mind relaxes and the symptoms fade.
I think not doing anything about symptoms and just accepting them as the only approach to treatment can still be effective as that over time can stop the mind from becoming more sensitized. This might be more effective over a longer time and for pts who are less ill. |
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Dave
USA
1864 Posts |
Posted - 01/04/2015 : 10:21:26
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| Ace, your thinking is more consistent with Dr. Sarno's view than you might realize. Once he confirmed the diagnosis, the very first thing he did was give me a photocopy of the pages from his book that described Pavlovian conditioning. He said this was the most important part of the theory and needed to be understood and accepted before anything else. That is, it is more important to change one's thinking and behavior towards the symptoms than to understand the details of when/where/why they occur. The idea of "unconscious rage" provides a mechanism to ignore the symptoms and focus on our emotional health. |
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miehnesor
USA
430 Posts |
Posted - 01/05/2015 : 23:07:30
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quote:
Originally posted by Ace1
When I took dr sarno literally I was making no progress, this is bc I kept thinking there was some intelligent process that if only I knew about it, it would then give up its strategy. I would continue think and behave in the same way and this kept me the same. I come to see that the real issue is sensitized/strained nerves that are conditioned to become this way in various conditioned situations. I think almost all of the phenomenon observed, such as worsening of symptoms with working on tms, can be explained with this view. Your supposed to get your mind comfortable again with these various conditioned situations. You go into them and do nothing about the symptoms and typically the symptoms ramp up. If you continue with this approach the mind relaxes and the symptoms fade.
Ace- I'm sure this approach works for many of your patients. It was a complete flop with mine but perhaps I am the exception rather then the rule. Only feeling gave me any relief and I believe that was because the level of fear of the rage was just overwhelming and so experiencing the rage was the only way that the fear could be reduced. I showed my inner
child that I could go through that and still survive.
Dr Sarno suggests psychotherapy for those patients that show no progress with their symptoms. It is a very long and expensive process but I think it is the right next step if attempts to ignore the symptoms prove ineffective. After years of horrible suffering to finally experience the rage responsible for it was an unbelievable moment for me. |
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Ace1
USA
1040 Posts |
Posted - 01/06/2015 : 11:52:14
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So M, are you completely free of significiant symptoms now? Contragulations on your success. It does make sense to me that you were afraid of your rage and when you experienced it there was nothing else to ancipate and fear.
Dave, I have to make this clear that I am completely indebted to Dr. Sarno. I would probably be dead or disabled by now if it had not been for him. He led me on the right track for sure. I actually shadowed him, he really is a great man and we do agree on a lot. I am just saying that the outline of how to recover per Dr. Sarno to me would have never worked for me. I had to think outside of the box and only then did i really start to improve. Let me give you some examples. The conditioning talked about in his books are more to do with positions and activities that themselves, out of fear, cause pain. The conditioning I'm referring to are situations that I have strained in so much in the past that my nerves are shot when I encounter them again. Do you see the difference? I did not understand the second situation until Balto explained it once in his post and also seeing it in myself. Also, his metaphor of the brain's protective mechanism, which he states is just a metaphor, does throw a person off from how to actually recover. There is a part in his book healing back pain, which I read about 10 times literally, where he discusses trying to relax as a treatment and he says it is ineffective. Granted that a superfical relaxation will not work, it really seems to be a deep relaxation of your nervous system that seems to be the goal of treatment in my mind. He states in the book that you do not need to change anything to get better, and yes you dont have to change the details of your life, but you do have to change your reactions. The final example that I can think of at this time is the young lawyer who challenged his pain by running everyday despite the pain. I found that challenging the pain in the form of a fight is definitely the wrong thing. I respect that you still may disagree with part or all of what I have said, but this is what I have seen work and fit my observations with the sick patients that I see. |
Edited by - Ace1 on 01/06/2015 18:48:09 |
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armchairlinguist
USA
1397 Posts |
Posted - 01/11/2015 : 18:10:50
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I have actually had to challenge symptoms in the form of a fight. I even used a technique which Fred Amir recommended (I think) about rewarding and punishing the unconscious/inner child. Only once but it did work. :)
I believe that the gift that Dr. Sarno gives is the knowledge that the body is capable of creating pain without pathology, and that by choosing not to believe in our pathology, we can heal from our pain, by choosing other methods of behavior. There are common threads that I have seen in terms of what behaviors are helpful, many of which are those recommended by Sarno - such as deconditioning, returning to normal activity, "thinking psychological", and psychotherapy. He hasn't covered 100% of them and probably nor has anyone, in the end.
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What were you expecting? |
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Singer_Artist
USA
1516 Posts |
Posted - 01/12/2015 : 22:37:22
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| Wow..this is a great thread...Reminds me of the good old days when so many very wise people chimed in to help. The TMS monster was attacking me tonight so rather than post I decided to read. I wanted to thank you all because I am already feeling a bit calmer..it's like picking up again with old friends. I have more stress than I care to even share right now. It is comforting to know I am not alone with this. I hope you are feeling better Mac..and I wish everyone a great 2015. |
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New here with some questions
