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 spoke to a naturopath, big mistake!
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Singer_Artist

USA
1509 Posts

Posted - 06/28/2006 :  17:06:18  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
A well meaning friend set it up where i could speak to a naturopathic doctor who would see me for free for the first visit...I thought he was just going to talk to me about diet and nutrition and I was open to that..After I told him about my neck and the TMS he started talking about how I probably needed a gentle spinal manipulation...Apparantly naturopaths do that just like Osteopaths, I had no idea..I told him that one of the main problems i had with my neck was after a spinal 'correction' by a chiro and no way would i let someone touch my neck again...And i told him i had to repudiate the structural diagnosis..Of course he did not agree and I nearly had a fight with him on the phone! He started talking about all the potential misalignments in my entire spine that could be causing problems and about some techinque wherein he puts a balloon up your nose (you have to be kidding me i thought) to adjust the cranial bones! WOWIE that does not sound like any fun at all! I am so mad at myself, I shouldn't have called him...I am still not 110 percent convinced re. the whole structural issue as it is..I hate when someone puts doubt in my head, esp. a medical professional..I am working HARD to relinquish the doubt that other doctors have put in me about this being psychologically based...And...although I saw Dr. Schecter years ago I honestly cannot even recal if he actually said i had TMS...Dr. Sopher seems to think so, just based on emailing and I suppose that since Schechter recommended Don Dubin to me years ago, he must have thought TMS...ANyway..that is part of the problem, I cannot see Sarno because i live in VEGAS not NJ anymore and so I never really had a clear diagnosis of TMS from a TMS doctor..But i pretty much know i have TMS it seems obvious for so many reasons...ANyway...I am hoping that thru the phone sessions with Don Dubin, my journaling, my reading and my conversations here i will deal with this TMS monster once and for all b4 i go off the deep end altogther...I wish i never spoke to that naturopath...it did more harm then good...

joela

USA
44 Posts

Posted - 06/28/2006 :  18:49:03  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I went to my chiropractor's partner and am iun worse shape now then before with my neck and shoulders so I know how you feel! I am a patient of Dr.Sarno but it is still so hard to ignore the pain. I hope we both can do this soon!!!
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Singer_Artist

USA
1509 Posts

Posted - 06/28/2006 :  19:03:23  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Thanx for replying Joela...I am so glad you did...You are so blessed to have Dr. Sarno as your doctor..I am from NJ and soooo wish i were still living there..Then I could see him as well...I have been living in Vegas for 12 years and want to move back very bad..But this neck TMS and subsequent financial issues have made it impossible to relocate for now...I would love to hear more of your experiences with Dr. Sarno if you would like to share it with me..
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tennis tom

USA
4599 Posts

Posted - 06/28/2006 :  20:01:00  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Hi S_A,

You did GOOD! You succesfully staved-off a full frontal attack by a quack. Any health-care worker who treats you like that is more likely interested in the contents of your wallet, rather than your health. It takes courage to go head-to-head with one of those.

After a while, armed with TMS knowledge, you grow more confident, in taking control of your mindbody wellness. YOU start making health-care decisions rather than having them made for you by people who may not have your best interest at heart.

If Dr. Schechter, sent you to Donald Dubin, than I think it's safe to assume that he dx'ed you with TMS. Give his office a call and have them check your records. In my case, he dx'ed me as NOT having TMS of my hip and reccommended I have hip-replacement surgery.

What I find fascentating, is that you have seen two doctors, trained by Dr. Sarno, Dr. Schechter and Dr. Eisenforf and that you do not recall the dx. I'm not being critical of you here. I feel it is a trick that the TMS gremlin plays on our minds. Our sub-conscious makes us gloss over or ignore the TMS diagnosis. People often post here, that Sarno does not write enough, or not at all, about THEIR symptom, when it is all there in his books. Sarno's point is that the physical symptom nor the psychogenic process that creates the symptom is of any importnace. The important thing about TMS is the emotional issues that caused the symptom to surface as a distraction.
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Singer_Artist

USA
1509 Posts

Posted - 06/28/2006 :  21:11:50  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Thanx TT,
You are right, perhaps my mind is playing tricks on me and making me forget the dx...I never saw Eisendorf for a dx just went to his class...As for Dr. Schecter, I had another person on here tell me that they couldn't recall whether he dx them with TMS or not as well...he doesnt really talk much..I doubt that they still have my records it was awhile ago..but i did think to call and ask..thanx for reminding me to do so..It is a good idea...Dr. Sopher will do a phone consult wtih me if i like and i am considering it..But i don't know if my mind will then say "yes, but he didn't see me in person or palpate the areas to see if they were sore, etc. etc. ad nauseum..THis gremlin is really a monster and will do all it can to stay alive and well...My chiro who does kinesiology over the phone and believes in TMS said i should try to get up from bed while laying on my side without supporting my neck to break the pattern..I am scared but will try slowly..I did alittle today and then had twitching in my upper arm...I am tighter now too and having pain in the ring finger..a new place...This is maddening truly...So you never had the hip replacement right? And you got better? Where does your TMS rear it's ugly head? Just wondering..Although i should probably talk about the mind instead of the body! I cannot believe i am still struggling with accepting the dx 300 percent...Thanx for your support and wonderful reply..You always help me so much!
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tennis tom

USA
4599 Posts

Posted - 06/29/2006 :  10:16:09  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
S-A,

Your mind is not "PERHAPS" playing tricks on you--it IS ! You are doing the right thing by talking with Donald Dubin, say Hi to him, from Tom if you could. From what I understand, Dr. Sarno, is increasingly referring patients to TMS therapists and Don knows his stuff.

Regarding your med records, I believe by law, they have to keep them for at least 5 years, maybe longer.

You are very averse to accepting the TMS dx. The fact that you went to two TMS docs and don't have a firm dx is telling. I'm curious why you travelled all the way from LV to Santa Cruz and didn't arrange for an exam by Eisendorf. That's a long way to go for a group therapy session. I recall you were in so much pain, you had to stand up.

I keep forgetting that you have been productive in the meantime and this is a relapse. I assume your TMS went away and now it's back.

Back to me. Not a day goes by that someone doesn't ask me when I'm going to have the hip fixed. They are all conditioned to the quick fix--take a pill, have a surgery--surgery is as routinely done as un-wrapping a candy bar or fixing a meal. To me amputating the top of my femur and my acetabulum seems like a really big deal. I used to restore old cars and OEM parts were always superior to the repros. Original unrestored is always preferable to a restortion. In the antique world, patina is desirable.

I am not convinced that Schechter's dx was correct. As you said, he doesn't talk much. He is after-all, a doctor with a busy practice. Don Dubin, didn't neccessarily agree that I did NOT have TMS. I'm finding there is disagreement about what is TMS and what isn't, even amongst TMS docs.

I would go to NY to see the GOOD DOCTOR himself, but thankfully, he doesn't take accept out of town patients. I figure, three TMS dx strikes for my hip and it's --OUT! I like my right hip, it's been with me all my life. I think it deserves better treatment than being put into a bottle of formaldehyde. So for now I play up to 6 hours of doubles a day with a lot of fun, work with my coach improving my technique, do 30-60 minutes of running in the pool with an aquajogger and read THE DIVIDED MIND in the hot-tub.

The surgeons all say, keep exercising to maintain condition, and come back when the pain is so bad that I can't put my shoes and socks on and can't sleep at night. I am way beyong that point. I have no problem sleeping at night, or driving cross country and back in a single sitting. I limp after playing for six hours and have to hang onto the walls, but after my pool work I am good to go again. I do have some difficulty bending over to put on my socks and tie my shoes, but that is more due to my fat gut.
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Singer_Artist

USA
1509 Posts

Posted - 06/29/2006 :  10:34:12  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
You're an inspiration TT, that is so great how you have improved and your determination to hold onto your Hip..I so understand how you feel about that...Surgery is terribly frightening and risky and should be avoided AT ALL COSTS! If you can be as active as you are then you don't need surgery..not now,not ever...THE BODY HEALS..tell those darn doctors that fact of life! AHHHHHhh they really make me angry sometimes,being so darn knife happy!

I didn't drive all the way to Santa Cruz to attend Eisendorf's class, not at all..I was going up there anyway with my boyfriend at the time..We were visiting his relatives who live in Santa Cruz for the holiday...I did some research and found there was a class there and decided to kill 2 birds with one stone..Hate that saying..cuz i love animals..lol.. but you see what i am saying..

Dr. Schecter was one of the quietest doctors i have ever met...I just don't recal a thing he said to me, no kidding...ANd it does upset me..I think i may have to have a phone consult w/ Dr. Sopher..although knowing the skeptic that i can be i might say to myself "Yeah well he didn't see you in person and palpate those tender areas to see if they hurt!" AHHHhhhhhh i frustrate myself so much because i can step outside of me and see how stubborn i can be about fully accepted the DX! I have to tell myself..how did i get to Don Dubin in the first place for goodness sakes! And when i did the Schecter online test to see if i have TMS i scored an 8 out of 10...that is pretty high...

Yes i was just working out at the gym 5 weeks ago, so i was back on my feet..etc..but it was looming in the backround waiting to rear it's ugly head again...I have had other set backs neck and knee since Eisendorf..THis is one of the worst...Just b4 it happened i recal stressing BIG TIME about selling my art to survive and family issues of rejection and feeling TRAPPED in Vegas when i want to MOVE HOME TO NJ!
Enough about me.
Again you are such an inspiration and add soooooo much to this wonderful forum! God bless you!
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tennis tom

USA
4599 Posts

Posted - 06/29/2006 :  11:42:20  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Hi S_A,

Thanks for the kind words and explanation of Santa Cruz.

Call Schechter's office and see if they can find your record. If they can, your DX will have been noted. The "white-coat" impramature is very helpful to many TMS sufferers, (I wish I had received it), just as the wrong dx and it's nocebo effect.

Schechter's office owes you that much--you paid him for it or your insurance did. Dr. Sarno is very generous in helping his patients, with follow-ups by to questions by phone, mail and e-mail, and in person. I even have a letter from him, sitting in my copy of THE M_B PRESCRIPTION, replying to my questions and I was not even a patient.

The Good Doctor, understands that TMS is not "cured" but "understood".
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Singer_Artist

USA
1509 Posts

Posted - 06/29/2006 :  11:55:29  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Thanx TT,
I just called Dr. Schecter's office and left a message for him to call me back..They are searching for my old records and hopeful Dr. Schechter himself will return my call...I sooooooooo wish i could see Dr. Sarno himself..I can see his warmth and great heart in his lectures that i have on videotape..He seems like an amazing person...I am thinking of writing to him directly...Do you know what address i could use wherein he would get it himself rather then a secretary?
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h2oskier25

USA
395 Posts

Posted - 06/29/2006 :  16:15:27  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Dear S_A,

Thanks for your post. When I heard your perspective Naturopath wanted to stick a balloon up your nose, I was suddenly validated in my decision to stay away from all doctors.

A balloon up my nose, huh? Hmnn. I don't think so.

My TMS had me seeking help from all sorts of people in the physiological professions. I have to say, I learned a lot, but mostly about nutrition.

Don't stop looking for the physchological reasons for your pain. I'm 99% cured, and I still have to do it from time to time.

Beth
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Singer_Artist

USA
1509 Posts

Posted - 06/29/2006 :  16:20:41  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Thank you Beth...Glad that my post helped too...I am so in the middle of an acute attack of neck TMS that i am desperately reaching out everywhere...I had my second therapy phone session w/ TMS psychologist Don Dubin..It was good..I cried alot, which is rare for me and my neck felt looser after..But it is all tight again and i can barely move it...Plus the intermittent pain in the arms fingers on my left side...Enough to drive me nuts..I been in this for 5 weeks staight..can't drive, work, etc...I just want so bad to feel better...Your feeling 99 percent now does give me encouragement..What do you attribute most of your success to or Who? Journaling, reading the books on TMS, a doctor's diagnosis, the emotinoal work? Just wondering.. Thanx for writing me.
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h2oskier25

USA
395 Posts

Posted - 06/30/2006 :  13:19:24  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Thanks for your kind response.

If anyone's story should give people encouragement, it's mine.

I'm giving this a SuccessStory: tag.

I starting having trouble with my wrists about 8 years ago. It got so bad that I filed worker's comp and thought I had Repetitive Stress Injury. I've since learned there's no such thing. Lost my job a few months later (Workers Comp does NOT protect your job.)

Anyway, pain and swelling that constantly terrorized me, especially regarding losing my job for 7 years. Yes, 7 long years. Don't think I didn't have severe neck pain bouts, and shoulder pain bouts, and hip pain bouts along the way.

The real tragedy was that I gave up my life for 7 years, but only the good parts. I continued to work. That's one thing that helped me. I wouldn't acknowledge the problem at work, because I was so scared of losing my job, the way I did when I first flared up and filed workers comp. I can't emphasize enough to people that pretending to not have a problem at work was the first step in "disrespecting" the pain, which was good practice for later.

Went to Dr. after Dr. Rheumatologists, neurologists, osteopaths, chiroís etc. The most helpful ones were the nice ones, who listened, but mostly I was even more depressed that I was so beyond help.

I ran across Sarno in early 2004, and embraced it as much as possible. Unfortunately, I had found a way to use my wrist and hands so little at work, that I still clung to the belief that overuse would hurt, so I didn't work very hard, EVER. I did start doing whatever I wanted outside of work, though. Felt great to get my life back.

Did I mention that I had a husband that wouldn't look for work during this 7 year period? My unconscience was TIRED of being the ONLY responsible one. Come to think of it, so was my conscience.

Then I lost my cushy job. Uh-Oh. Iím a software developer, so I found a new job. This one was a REAL job and required that I actually work hard all day. Big Flare up the minute I started. I wrote to Nate McNamara, whose site www.conquerrsi.com is what I attribute to the beginning of my cure. He said he flared up when he started a new job, too, but kept working the principles and got over it in a few weeks.

I re-read Sarno. I journaled. I bought the book Facing the Fire by John Lee, which helps you express and deal with anger, rather than ďunderstandĒ or ďreasonĒ with it. I ordered the CDís from Dr. Schechter and played them over and over in my car. I really think that went a long way. I have to say though; the turning point for me was when I talked to Kevin at Dr. Sarnoís office. I was calling to order the video tape of Sarno giving a TMS Lecture. I told him I was concerned when my forearms started tingling that I wasnít going to be able to continue working.

He said ďYour unconscious is having a party at your expense. Your not completely convinced, or you wouldnít be asking me about the physical.Ē I tell you, it was like somebody flipped a switch. I felt the healing in both hands right away and it continued for a couple of days. After that, I had plenty of pain, which I treated with a new attitude. It was like. ďOh, I have some pain today, well, thatís not gonna change the fact that this work needs to get done. Guess Iíll work in pain today. By the way, what could be going on phsychologically with me to cause all of this pain . . .Ē

Iíve had minor recurrances that NEVER slow me down, but I have embraced the ďresume normal activityĒ commandment whole heartedly and NEVER looked back.

At this point, I donít feel any one thing did it, itís just a habit you build, of looking to the phsychological and not the physical. Eventually, my mind just gave up the charade.

I still have a flare up, like yesterday, which was the first in over 6 months (WOW). I must say, its truly flattering to be asked ďHow you did itĒ, when for years, I was doing the asking.

Best wishes and stay with it. This is the only thing that works so pervasively in our society of chronic aches and pains and weakness and swelling. Thanks Dr. Sarno, Dr. Schechter, Nate McNamara and everyone on this site, and of course, Kevin at Dr. Sarnoís office.



Beth
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h2oskier25

USA
395 Posts

Posted - 06/30/2006 :  13:25:41  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Also, I love the following poem, which I am quoting from memory as best I can from Dr. Schechterís CDís. He attributes it to one of his patients who wrote it. I've added the part in square brackets. He can be reached at www.mindbodymedicine.com.

Iím demanding that my brain
abandon its defense
Of creating so much pain
whenever Iíve been tense

So stop hiding my emotion
in every muscle and each nerve.
Iím getting into motion
with vigor, vim and verve.

Iím calling my unconscious' bluff
to end this silly game
Through tears and fears it has been rough
Iíve managed to stay sane.

Iíve had enough of this charade
and enough of victimhood.
No longer fooled, Iím not afraid
Iím getting rid of pain for good.

So goodbye today to TMS
[Iím heathly as can be].
Now Gratefully I must confess
The truth has set me free.

Iíve had to be steadfast and strong
get angry but stay gentle
Itís been so long, my thoughts were wrong the
problem was all mental.


Again, I'm quoting from Memory and may have gotten a lot of this wrong. The fact that I memorized this poem when I haven't had to recite it for over 6 months should be a statement as to what I would do (i.e. repeat this poem to myself over and over) every time I used to flare up.


Beth
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Singer_Artist

USA
1509 Posts

Posted - 06/30/2006 :  14:19:19  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
WOW Beth,
What a sweetheart you are for sharing all of that with me including that AWESOME poem...My goodness..Thank you so very much!!! I wish I could talk to Kevin...but whenever i try to call Dr. Sarno i get a recording...and they won't return a call to Las Vegas...I must admit i am still looking for that magic word someone will say to turn that switch off or on as it will...I am studying, journaling, speaking to the wonderful people here, and having sessions w/ Don Dubin who Dr. Schecter recommends to people for TMS counselling...After my session with Don on the phone yesterday..i got progressively more pain...I spoke to him about it and he said i did ALOT of good work yesterday..I was crying my eyes out about all the abandoment in my family..He said usually it takes people half a dozen sessions to get where i was so he wasnt surprised about the flare up on top of the flare up, so to speak...He said he had other patients have the same thing happen initially...So today i am better then last night, but then i am always better during the earlier parts of the day...i supposed that is my conditioning...although i was brain washed for years by doctors to think it was becuase my herniated discs had a break for the evening while i sleeped..ie..the weight of my head was off my shoulders for awhile in other words...In Dr. Sarno's video he does say some feel better during the morning some better at night..so it must be conditioning..Even when i lay down flat for 10 min and get back up i can temporarily move my head a little better...The TMS monster is doing all she/he can to convince me i have a physical problem..ANother friend on here pointed something out that really did help...She said...if it were structural then why is it that after you cry it loosens up a bit..It wouldn't change like that if it were physical...The intense skeptic in me says...hmm...she makes a good point...BUT....maybe the muscles just relaxed a moment and the problem is still there...AHHHhhhhhhhhhhhh i get soooooooo frustrated with MYSELF for just not letting go and BELIEVING~ I am working sohard on this, really i am..Thanx again for your great reply!!! God bless you and please stay in touch!
I am so glad you are doing better!!!
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