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wrldtrv
666 Posts |
 Posted - 04/05/2007 : 22:36:13
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It has been a hellish week. I mentioned on another thread that some of the neuro-like symptoms that I had last year and also 4 yrs before that, seem to have returned. Things like leg/buttock stiffness, the jitters, a perception of weakness in the legs, achy feeling in armpit and down arm to hand. These are not all present at the same time; they seem to vary during the day, usually much better at night.
The last two episodes; last year and 4 yrs before that, I thought I had MS and had all the possible tests (incl MRI's)for that and other neuro stuff without finding anything. Eventually, the symptoms faded away and I was back to normal. But the fact that this is the third time in 6 yrs has me worried. I've been trying to treat it as TMS, but each time a symptom is particularly strong, I doubt. This is kind of a catch-22. I've gone the conventional medical route--twice--to rule out anything serious. I have been working the TMS route this time. The problem persists. What am I missing?
I can see where my brain might have created these symptoms given the extraordinary pressures I've been under lately. Add to that, I have strong hypochondriacal tendencies. Just in the past several months preceding these new symptoms, were back pain for a few months (gone the day the neuro symptoms arrived!), a mysterious bout of stomach pain that went on for almost a week (I imagined ulcer or stomach cancer), mysterious neck pain that came out of nowhere and disappeared as suddenly, shoulder pain that got progressively worse for several months until I broke down and made an appt for PT, whereby it immediately got 80% better. Foot pain, teeth pain, and on and on. There is rarely a week without something. Most of these are only nuisances, but it is very easy for me to build a seemingly minor problem into a catastropic one.
Here's my dilemma: I don't know whether it is better to disengage from the current symptoms (easier said than done) or take a more active approach. In order to do the TMS work, eg journaling, it is necessary to spend a lot of time thinking about it, becoming obsessed with it. Sometimes I feel that is even worse.
I spend a lot of time trying to rationalize why I can't have anything serious. I go down the laundry list in my mind (all the tests over a several yr period, etc) why it is unlikely I have MS. I feel better for about 5 minutes until the next negative thought rudely intervenes (yea, but maybe they forgot to check...). It's a vicious cycle.
I spend lots of time writing these arguments out. I try all kinds of reasoning with the same results; momentary relief followed by feeling worse when I find something that contradicts the earlier reasoning. This literally is a never ending game.
It's exactly the same if I go to a doctor. When they don't find anything, which is usually the case, I feel better followed by feeling worse. This is why I made a point of staying away from docs for 18 months now, as well as researching symptoms on the internet. Progress. And this TMS board has been very valuable.
To sum up a maybe too-long post (sorry, I get my thoughts out by writing them down), two questions: First, do I back away (disengage--tactical withdrawal) or confront it head on and risk feeling even worse or getting discouraged? Second, how can I make myself really believe that my current symptoms are not sign of disease, but of TMS? Reasoning doesn't seem to work; in fact, in my attempts to reason away disease, it reinforces it in my mind (the idea of, what we resist we get).
On a related note. I called the psychiatrist I saw last year for advice. He knows my situation and even conferred with the neurologist who did all those tests last time. He said, definitely don't go back for more tests. I agree, but I'm afraid if these symptoms worsen I will feel desperate for that assurance (for the 3rd time!).
Any input is much appreciated!
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armchairlinguist
USA
1397 Posts |
Posted - 04/05/2007 : 23:19:28
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quote:
I spend lots of time writing these arguments out.
Journaling can't be less productive than this! You are already obsessing -- at least do it about something that has a chance of helping you. You will not be able to convince your mind that all is well by reasoning. It has a vested interest in not letting you. Worried thoughts do not come from rationality, they come from a need to distract yourself. You need to face that you are pissed off or otherwise emotionally upset about SOMETHING, and go there when you are doing "anxiety obsessing".
I found that attempting to feel angry whenever I was anxious was the only thing that cut it off. It interrupts the thought process and puts you in a totally different mode. If you don't know what the repressed thing is, just think about something you know makes you angry. Then try to keep the angry going for a while.
Your description of the symptom progression, esp. that each one goes away when the next one comes -- YOU WIN TMS FORMULA ONE CLASSIC! :-) You cannot have that many different things wrong with you in such a short period. It is your brain messing with you.
Explore the pressure you are under. If you need to set a limit on the obsessing of all types, I would suggest limiting journaling to 15-30 mins a day (this is recommended by Schechter in his book), and cutting off anxiety obsessing with temporary anger focus.
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Wherever you go, there you are. |
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Singer_Artist
USA
1516 Posts |
Posted - 04/05/2007 : 23:28:23
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Hi wrldtrv,
I am so sorry you are having a return of some symptoms...I have had alot of neuro symptoms coming from my neck on and off for years..I still have weird tightness on the right side of my neck and if I go over very bumpy roads or get very stressed my head can actually move a tiny bit on it's own..Neuro symptoms of any kind are the scariest as far as I am concerned..I would almost rather have pain then twitching, tingling, tightness, etc...So I really do sympathize/empathize with you...You have always helped me so much and so I want to do all I can to help you...
I have a friend in So. Cal. who has MS...As far as I know it doesn't come on, go away, only to return..It comes on and gradually gets worse through time...Also it can be diagnosed with the tests you have already had...So tell yourself you do not have MS!
You sound alot like me w/ the hypochondriacal symptoms...I can relate..There is always something, it's neck or arm/hand or it's knee or back..or the back of my skull or just strange random pains out of nowhere...I keep thinking about those herniated discs back there! We are not alone with these fears..TMS can be very convincing...
Remember, Dr. Sarno talks about symptom imperative...There are plenty of people who have pain/neuro symptoms in multiple locations at once and it moves around too...This is typical TMS...
I tell everyone else to journal but I rarely do myself...I type fast but my handwriting is terrible...So i use that as an excuse to not journal..I am not good on computers either so i don't know how to create a special folder for my journal online, etc...I am afraid I am a typical musician/artist in this way..
You seem to have a good grasp on journalling and it has helped you alot in the past...When you write about your symptoms keep thinking PSYCHOLOGICAL...What are all these symptoms really about? What are you avoiding deep inside...
I have faith you will get through this! Keep positive and fight that hypochondriacal monster inside..I have to almost daily..
Hugs and God bless you,
Karen |
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armchairlinguist
USA
1397 Posts |
Posted - 04/06/2007 : 00:21:35
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wrldtrv, before I say this note I am NOT saying I think you have MS, because I don't.
But MS CAN come and go. Martin Sheen's West Wing character had this type. It's called relapsing-remitting MS; the other type is secondary progressive, and it doesn't come and go.
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Wherever you go, there you are. |
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art
1903 Posts |
Posted - 04/06/2007 : 01:20:24
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quote:
I spend a lot of time trying to rationalize why I can't have anything serious. I go down the laundry list in my mind (all the tests over a several yr period, etc) why it is unlikely I have MS. I feel better for about 5 minutes until the next negative thought rudely intervenes (yea, but maybe they forgot to check...). It's a vicious cycle.
I agree with armchair...I call it the physics of anxiety...For evry positive, reassuring thought there exists an equal and opposite negative, scary thought...As I've written in another context....golf actually...if fear is an ocean (and who'd argue that it is not), then thinking is the leak in the boat, the hole in the dam...
The only way to deal with this stuff in my opinion is to CEASE ALL THOUGHT....Every time you find yourself obsessing about these symptoms, take a deep breath and let it go...You will not think your way out of this...Armchair has it right.
Edit...armchair wrote..."wrldtrv, before I say this note I am NOT saying I think you have MS, because I don't.
"But MS CAN come and go. Martin Sheen's West Wing character had this type. It's called relapsing-remitting MS; the other type is secondary progressive, and it doesn't come and go."
Although you added a word of assurance, this is not what he needs to hear in my opinion...
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Edited by - art on 04/06/2007 01:24:42 |
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art
1903 Posts |
Posted - 04/06/2007 : 07:40:59
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I wrote that late at night, and should have been softer about it...I know armchair just putting medical info out there..She did a beautiful job of identifying the problem...Too much thinking!!
For the obsessive worrier, thought is gasoline on the fire. One must disengage, cease fire, surrender...
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Singer_Artist
USA
1516 Posts |
Posted - 04/06/2007 : 07:47:00
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| The great thing about a forum like this is that we have a wide spread of different personalities, life experiences, etc..We all offer something (hopefully) to each other in this arena which is supposed to be supportive in nature..We are all here to aid our healing..One cannot venture a guess on exactly what someone needs or doesn't need to hear..As long as it is offered with a caring heart and personal experience,in my opinion, it is beneficial.. |
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art
1903 Posts |
Posted - 04/06/2007 : 07:59:32
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One cannot venture a guess on exactly what someone needs or doesn't need to hear.
Karen, please...Are you really unable to successfully guess that obsessive worrier wrld is going to take that little tidbit and run with it, at least for a while? It's right in his wheel house of worry...Smack dab in the middle... |
Edited by - art on 04/06/2007 08:05:39 |
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Singer_Artist
USA
1516 Posts |
Posted - 04/06/2007 : 08:05:05
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Art,
With all due respect, I am not going to allow someone's post (or any of my future ones) to be side tracked again into some sort of long winded debate..Let's stay with the topic and try to help wrldtrv...We all have something to contribute, that was the only point I was trying to make..He can take what helps him and leave what doesn't... |
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Singer_Artist
USA
1516 Posts |
Posted - 04/06/2007 : 08:13:48
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| OOps...I misunderstood you art...I guess I am still feeling on the defensive from what we recently went through on here...You were refering to the comment that armchair wrote...I 'assumed' (mistake on my part) that you were criticizing something that I wrote...So, as it turns out, I actually agree with you...Sorry...:) |
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art
1903 Posts |
Posted - 04/06/2007 : 08:58:51
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armchairlinguist
USA
1397 Posts |
Posted - 04/06/2007 : 11:59:39
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Yes, I considered that it is not wise to get into the possible variations in physical-cause symptoms. It is the medical inaccuracy that concerns me. It's possible I didn't choose the right balance, but I hope my first post counters that a little.
I am an obsessive worrier myself. Rational thought simply cannot overcome the impulse to worry, and I'm not sure that getting more information to worry about makes it that much worse, since I and all other obsessive worriers I know are perfectly capable of worrying when there is nothing to worry about. :-)
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Wherever you go, there you are. |
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andy989
USA
17 Posts |
Posted - 04/06/2007 : 15:56:41
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I disagree with Armchair to an extent--there ARE cognitive ways of negating TMS symptoms--but for many, they must be learned. Once they are, they can be very helpful. Look up REBT (rational emotive behavioral therapy)...similiar to cognitive behavioral therapy.
I found the popular book SOS Help For Emotions by Lynn Clark very helpful in teaching people in our situation how to think rationally.
I too tend to think, "but maybe I do have an RSI...oh my god..." It's why I sought help (REBT). But it is possible to make the way you think about your symptoms more constructive, and it can be very powerful in defeating the pain.
The "rational" method that works best for me is one that relates to probability.
Specifically: Would a rational person find it logical that I TRULY injured myself if I: a) did some repetitive movements (long story) b) went through extensive medical testing for years and came up with nothing, and c) the pain comes and goes, especially when I'm especially convinced that it's not real--it dissipates sharply within seconds!
VERY unlikely!
In order to engage in this thought pattern, I still need to try and take the perspective of another person...what would someone else (who is rational) think about this?
But this thought pattern is helpful for me--there are many different ones that may be very useful for others. |
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art
1903 Posts |
Posted - 04/06/2007 : 17:02:13
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I am an obsessive worrier myself. Rational thought simply cannot overcome the impulse to worry, and I'm not sure that getting more information to worry about makes it that much worse, since I and all other obsessive worriers I know are perfectly capable of worrying when there is nothing to worry about. :-)
I don't disagree...I too am an obsessive worrier, and it's cost me a lot...What little wisdom I have on the subject has been painfully earned....
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armchairlinguist
USA
1397 Posts |
Posted - 04/06/2007 : 17:33:23
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quote:
I disagree with Armchair to an extent--there ARE cognitive ways of negating TMS symptoms--but for many, they must be learned. Once they are, they can be very helpful. Look up REBT (rational emotive behavioral therapy)...similiar to cognitive behavioral therapy.
In my opinion, obsessive worrying comes from the same emotional place as other TMS symptoms (need for a distraction from emotions), and CBT/REBT techniques, while very likely to be helpful, do not deal with the core issues. Obviously, a lot of TMS work is done inside the head verbally in the way that worrying and rationalizing are, and it's important to do that, to send yourself the consistent messages that the problem is not physical, and review the reasons why that's the case. But ultimately, your brain is motivated to keep coming back at you with "reasons" why you're wrong, and unless you manage to make a shift to some other mode of thinking and dealing with the issues, you can be caught in that trap repeatedly.
I've actually also found that while I can be worried and anxious at the same time, being "worried" drives out genuinely fearful feelings. So ironically, I can sometimes also stop the worry cycle by acknowledging that I AM AFRAID, and trying to understand what the fear is about (fear of death, fear of abandonment, those sort of biggies). Like anger, this is an emotional short-circuit of the worry cycle that puts you into the core emotional issues. Just like 'thinking psychological, not physical'.
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Wherever you go, there you are. |
Edited by - armchairlinguist on 04/06/2007 17:39:56 |
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wrldtrv
666 Posts |
Posted - 04/06/2007 : 17:38:44
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I don't have time for a full reply right now (I'll do that later), but I do want to thank those of you who have offered your perspectives and support. One other thing; not to worry, Armchairlinguist and others re: telling me about progressive vs relapsing-remitting MS. Believe me, as a hypochondriac I know all about the disease. It is always figured into my calculations.
The point that Andy made about REBT is exactly what I have in mind when I journal. It is with a purpose--to try to logically dispute the erroneous beliefs of ill-health. The REBT method is supposed to be effective, but maybe not so much for a worrier, a hypochondriac, who will never get to the end of the process, but will forever be finding new bits of information to analyze.
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wrldtrv
666 Posts |
Posted - 04/06/2007 : 22:53:57
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Armchairlinguist, Art, Andy, SA, and others,
I re-read your posts and have been thinking about them. Of course, that is the very issue (whether to use cbt techniques or simply disengage completely as Art says) I have been grappling with. I can see the value of both, but somehow, for someone like me who is an over-the-top worrier and analyzer, trying to turn off the thinking seems better. I would sure like to do that, but I don't if I could, the compulsion to worry is so strong.
This is a typical example: Wake up. Mentally body scan. Afraid to get out of bed for fear of experiencing jittery legs. Finally get up. Depending on symptoms, my mood plummets or not. All day long as the quality and location of symptoms change, so does my mood; from stark terror and hopelessness to feeling optimistic. All day long there is a mental battle going on as I try to analyze the symptoms. Endless rumination that alternately props me up and slaps me down. It is though I am in a room without windows or doors and trying to find the exit. Usually by night I am much better, even back to normal.
The fact that this has been going on for almost six years now would seem to indicate that it is not MS--even the relapsing-remitting kind would surely a) show up on an MRI or b)show some permanent deficit. But no to both of those. I think one thing that especially bothers me about this episode is that the last one was only a little over a year ago, whereas the one before that was 4 years earlier.
I guess I am having a problem believing these symptoms could be TMS because most of the posts I read on here deal with the typical musculoskeletal issues rather than neuro stuff. I need to know, really believe, that my brain is really capable of creating these symptoms. From what I have read on the subject it seems possible, even TMS aside if you consider neuroplasticity. Intense fear changes the brain. Each episode (eg my neuro) reinforces the new wiring so that it takes less and less stimulus next time.
I'm rambling, but it just occurred to me the example of someone who loses an arm in an accident. The arm is gone, but there is often something called phantom pain that remains. The person has all the sensations and pain as though the arm were still there. So here, the pain is not coming from the nonexistent arm, but from the neuro pathways in the brain that used to serve that arm. Maybe there's something similar going on with me and my neuro symptoms.
One last thing. ACL, I think, said if I am going to journal I should do it about something that is likely to have a payoff, like what might be going on in my life. Well, what can I say, it's filled with incredible stresses of all kinds; anger, frustration, disappointment, sadness (that's a big one), and the biggie: FEAR.
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Singer_Artist
USA
1516 Posts |
Posted - 04/06/2007 : 23:43:53
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wrldtrv,
I really understand how you feel..Please rest assured knowing you are Not alone..I have, as i mentioned, various neuro symptoms for years on and off as well..I still think they are the scariest symptoms of all..I have had twitching of the fingers, the back of my neck..I have had such tightness in my skull, in the back, that my head moves on it's own, ever so slightly..I have had a persistent tightness in my upper right neck that only once in a while goes away..I am afraid to look up all the way because a chiro told me once that looking up would cause the most damage..So i am afraid to look up! I am trying more and more and constantly talking to my brain!
I was in church tonight for Good Friday..It was a beautiful, inspiring service..But I was in sooo much pain..My knee was freaking out, then the neck, then both, then the mid back...AHHHHHHHh sooo frustrating and all i was doing was sitting there! I have this fear of sitting in one position to long without stretching my neck, back, etc..and the fear fuels the symptoms, big time..
I constantly monitor my symptoms all day as well..The only time i am not thinking about them is when engaged in a painting, very deeply..(an even then..sometimes the act of painting and holding my arm out straight brings on tightness in my neck..) Exercise is my saving grace..Walking as much as i can, working out, etc..I have been a slacker and have to get back to it seriously..I love exercising once in a routine and it helps with symptoms and the obsession..
I deal with alot of fear and all kinds of feelings/stress that are mine and other's emotions i have taken on..I don't want to write a novel,,i just want you to know that i empathize with you and wish you nothing but complete healing and restoration!
Hugs and God bless,
Karen |
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Littlebird
USA
391 Posts |
Posted - 04/07/2007 : 00:50:40
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When I first learned of TMS I had begun to believe that my neuro symptoms were probably MS. I'd been told that they could be, even though MRI's showed nothing. I was getting progressively worse and using a cane more and more often because my right leg was so weak. Doctor's would check my leg strength and see it was much weaker than the left, they'd whack my knees, ankles and elbows with the little hammer and get no reflex response, they'd look at my perfect tests and they'd say, "Maybe another doctor can figure this out." I got sick of paying the bills (no insurance), but I was afraid not to pursue it.
Then I read The Divided Mind. I already knew that each time I developed a new neuro symptom or one I already had got worse, there was something really stressful going on, something that was making me feel resentful and angry at family members, so the book really fit for me. Within a short period of time all the neuro symptoms stopped. Every once in a while some symptom will start to flare up a little and I think "What's making me angry," and it stops. That hasn't worked yet with my other Fibro type symptoms (which I had for years before the neuro stuff started), but it works great with the neuro stuff. I'm up and down with the Fibro type stuff, and acknowledging anger does give me some improvement, but there is some anger that I've still been avoiding, so it's not surprising to me that I'm still having some symptoms.
I'm not saying your neuro symptoms are definitely TMS, but I know they could be. I could barely walk much of the time, especially after sitting for more than about half an hour. I used a cane, couldn't climb stairs, held on to furniture and walls and people to make sure I didn't fall down. I had horrible burning pains in my feet and legs, along with sensations of being squeezed, like I was wrapped up in tight rubber strips or something, sensations like something was cutting into my skin, tingling, semi-numbness, cold skin, a sensation of my skin being raw when it really wasn't, trembling hands and head, hands so weak I couldn't use a can opener, hand and arm pain so bad I could barely use the computer, vertigo, and more. It's all gone now. When it flared back up the first time I felt really scared, but seeing that I could challenge it and make it go away was really empowering.
I hope you can figure out how to overcome the fear and challenge your brain about these symptoms. I know how powerful the fear can be. To some extent my fear of MS has just shifted to fear of other things--cancer, heart disease, and so on. But the success with the neuro symptoms has made it easier to fight those fears. Keep telling yourself that TMS can and does cause neuro symptoms. |
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tennis tom
USA
4749 Posts |
Posted - 04/07/2007 : 01:42:48
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quote:
Originally posted by Littlebird
I'm not saying your neuro symptoms are definitely TMS, but I know they could be.
Great post Littlebird! I feel your line that I quote deserves some hilighting. Being goodists, we TMS'ers feel some responsibility to dx TMS "yea" or "nay", on this board, when asked to. Even TMS doctors can get it wrong or give answers that are equivocal.
I don't feel any of us, in attempting to dx here should feel any more guilt (than we already may bear) or any responsiblity, for giveing a wrong opinion.
When all is said and done, it is the individual's mindbody that will initiate a TMS "cure" or perpetuate it. |
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art
1903 Posts |
Posted - 04/07/2007 : 06:36:05
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quote:
This is a typical example: Wake up. Mentally body scan. Afraid to get out of bed for fear of experiencing jittery legs. Finally get up. Depending on symptoms, my mood plummets or not. All day long as the quality and location of symptoms change, so does my mood; from stark terror and hopelessness to feeling optimistic. All day long there is a mental battle going on as I try to analyze the symptoms. Endless rumination that alternately props me up and slaps me down. It is though I am in a room without windows or doors and trying to find the exit. Usually by night I am much better, even back to normal.
wrld, we've had an ongoing discussion you and I, for over a year now about this stuff....My main points continue to be these...The first is that while there's probably nothing wrong with you now, there very well might be at some point given the stress you are under //The human body can only take so much worry..
That aside, we're all human, and in that sense doomed anyway...Whether stress related or not, some day you will contract some fatal illness, that is if you don't get killed in some terrible accident first..Just from a philosophical/spiritual/wisdom point of view, isn't it time to try and make peace with that? Any relief you might feel evry time you go to the doctor and get some sort of clean bill of health, is false and temporary, even if you weren't a chronic worrier...
Finally, what a tragic waste of time..You should be enjoying life, not worrying yourself sick evry day...
I would ask you to look at your coping mechanisms and admit that they simply are not working...You're in, as far as I can see, precisely the same boat you were ina year ago...I sense you're more open to TMS as a legit diagnosis, but you're still unwilling to make that leap of faith...
If you keep doing the same things, in the same ways, nothing will change...You can disengage from the worrying trap if you want to...It takes effort, and courage, but you can do it...The rumination by your own admission simply does not work..Simple exercise in basic logic to see that you must try another approach...
All up to you....
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