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positivevibes
204 Posts |
 Posted - 06/05/2008 : 01:51:44
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I was wondering how a person can know that they feel enraged about something, yet not actually feel the rage?
I've been exploring several powerful negative things about my childhood with my therapist. There are things that really make me angry -- I can say "that enrages me!" Yet I don't FEEL rageful when I say that. I say it very calmly, or maybe even with tears in my eyes, but for some reason I can't seem to get myself to feel rageful or angry about the situation.
I find this really weird. I don't have a problem feeling angry about stuff the is going on in the present (or even the recent past). But when it comes to my childhood, it's a different story. Maybe some part of my mind is protecting me from feeling the feeling because it's so strong? Or, perhaps I've re-hashed it many times in the past I don't feel it anymore? Or perhaps my deep-down attitude is: "well, you can't change the past, so why be so angry about it?" Or -- from a TMS perspective -- the rage is being manifested physically instead?
Thoughts? Has this happened to any of you? |
Edited by - positivevibes on 06/05/2008 01:53:31 |
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hottm8oh
USA
141 Posts |
Posted - 06/05/2008 : 08:31:19
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I have a similar reaction. I had a very traumatic childhood, and I've been over it in therapy, in my own head, and with my friends and husband over and over again. I'm not sure if I just don't feel as much anger as I used to because I've dealt with it, or if it's now causing some of my TMS pain. I went through a very deep depression 7 years ago, which is when my back pain started, over something non-family related. I don't feel the severe hurt anymore, but I know that experience still affects my feelings of self-worth.
Do we really ever get over the past? How do we get our self-esteem and confidence back after these experiences? |
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hottm8oh
USA
141 Posts |
Posted - 06/05/2008 : 08:33:25
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I have a similar reaction. I had a very traumatic childhood, and I've been over it in therapy, in my own head, and with my friends and husband over and over again. I'm not sure if I just don't feel as much anger as I used to because I've dealt with it, or if it's now causing some of my TMS pain. I went through a very deep depression 7 years ago, which is when my back pain started, over something non-family related. I don't feel the severe hurt anymore, but I know that experience still affects my feelings of self-worth.
Do we really ever get over the past? How do we get our self-esteem and confidence back after these experiences? |
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scottjmurray
266 Posts |
Posted - 06/05/2008 : 18:39:48
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the last time i knew i was in a rage without feeling it was in the supermarket a week ago. i felt an extremely thick anxiety. this was after i first started doing primal scream work... and so i knew right then. i was like "dear god, i'm seriously pissed right now but i can't feel it because i think it's inappropriate to flip out in the supermarket." so i had to deal with the anxiety (that floaty woo woo i'm not here feeling), and i went home and let out the rage.
ahhh. rage. i'm a beast in a man's world.
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i'm not s#!t.
i'm champagne. |
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scottjmurray
266 Posts |
Posted - 06/05/2008 : 18:45:32
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the only reason you aren't feeling it is probably
1. you don't know how huge it really is. when i get pissed, i get PISSED. i'm talking about like, if i'm by myself, i am trying to beat the life out of my bed or i am growling and screaming. i'm not sure if that's "rage" though, because i'm pretty sure rage is the stuff that just explodes out of you (for instance, flipping out and trying to actually kill someone).
2. you're intellectualizing the process too much. it really doesn't matter what attitudes we take about our feelings, they will be produced regardless. it doesn't matter how silly i think convulsing on the floor is (i don't, by the way), i'm still going to produce emotions that are going to make me do that. emotions don't follow whatever messed up rules society and our parents have instilled in us.
childhood anger.. maybe you dealt with it already? i'm pretty pissed about a lot of stuff that happened to me as a kid. i'm not even done being pissed about that stuff yet. i still carry half of it on my back. you might be in the same boat. it's just a process of reuniting.
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i'm not s#!t.
i'm champagne. |
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AmyAJJ
98 Posts |
Posted - 06/05/2008 : 20:35:37
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I don't know if you'd want to do this, but depending on how you're "seeing" the things from your childhood in your mind that would effect whether you're able to feel enraged.
For instance, in NLP, if someone were trying to stop feeling so enraged, the practitioner would ask the person: When you see this event in your mind what does it look like? Is it black and white or color? Is it far away like you're looking at a picture frame or is it first person like it's happening to you? Is it dull or bright?
Things like that.
So if they said I'm seeing it first person like it's happening to me right now and I'm reliving it. It's in color and it's bright. Then the NLP person would guide them to visualize the event as a picture in a picture frame. Farther away. So they're looking at it 3rd person. It's a snapshot maybe of you in the situation that was painful in your childhood. Then make it black and white and dull instead of color.
The idea being that the more distance you have between you and image in your mind, the less impacted you are by the emotions of it.
So if you're not feeling impacted by the emotions related to the things that happened in your childhood, it might be because you're representing them in your mind as far away from you, as if it's happening to someone else. Some version of you that you don't feel connected with because it's like you're looking at a picture of it.
If this were true, then to FEEL more, one thing to try would be to put yourself back in the moment and relive it first person. Get in touch with the senses that were activated and feel how close you are to that event again. Rather than it being something that you see from a perspective where you're not really in it. Know what I mean?
Like I said earlier I don't know if you want to do that because most people work on doing the opposite. I've never heard of any NLP person suggesting this approach in order to get in touch with rage, but I know it is the approach they take when you want to feel successful, or some other positive feeling. You try to make the image in your mind more vibrant and real and first person so that you can experience it. So if you wanted to feel more rage, I don't see why it couldn't work. Could be something to discuss with your therapist.
All this being said, I also don't think that you actually have to feel that rage from your childhood. From what the books say around this type of thing, it can be enough that you know where the source of the pain is from. But you don't have to feel the rage. If you do, you do, but if you don't, you're not a lost cause. |
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positivevibes
204 Posts |
Posted - 06/05/2008 : 23:25:41
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I'm not sure what NLP is, but you are describing a therapy that my older daughter had a few years ago. She fell and broke her leg skiing when she was 9 years old. Almost a year after the accident she began to have a lot of anxiety at bedtime. It became unmanageable. Finally we took her to a recommended therapist. She did this thing with her where she wanted my daughter to picture the event as if it were a movie being projected on a very tiny screen. Well, it worked (in conjunction with a couple of sessions of talk therapy). Soon after that, my daughter got over her anxiety and we moved on with our lives.
I have to say, I'm not exactly sure HOW I see these unhappy childhood events of mine -- far away or up close (??) But they come out in my dreams all the time -- constantly. Seems like part of my psyche is still "back there" and I need to get it "unstuck." My parents are in their late 80s. I want to figure this out before they die. I want to be able to forgive them because everyone says that forgiveness sets you free.
But I have so much resentment toward them. I wasn't abused or anything -- just grew up in a very bad neighborhood where my life was truly in danger a lot of the time (constant anxiety about my well-being). I was an outsider (a different race and religion from almost everyone around me). I had very few friends and was miserable. I yearned for a safe suburban life.
Yet my parents didn't do the one thing that would have corrected the situation: they never moved away from that hell hole. They stayed and I continued to be traumatized and alienated my entire childhood and teen years. They finally found a way to move when I was a young adult. I'm extremely angry at them. I don't know how I will ever be able to forgive them for doing that to me. So many lost opportunities. I think they are two very stupid fearful people and I think I lost my respect for them a very long time ago. I feel sorry for them.
I live in California and they are in New Jersey. I couldn't get far enough away. Visiting them every year is sheer torture but I do it because I want my kids to have a relationship with their grandparents (after all, these are MY issues, not my kids' issues).
As an adult, and as a parent, it is hard to say those words about my parents, but it is true. I just thank God that my husband has helped me to create a normal happy family with well-adjusted happy children. It's the child inside of ME that needs to be healed. There is so much unhappiness inside of me from the past that it could fill an ocean. I just want to find the plug and drain it out because I'm tired of constantly finding myself "back there" in my thoughts and my dreams.
That's the big thing I'm working though with my therapist. If I can make peace with this, it will be interesting to see what happens to my TMS and my back problems, because this unhappiness has polluted my soul for way too long.
**********
You are not your mind; you are not your thoughts. The incessant mental noise [of your thoughts] creates a false mind-made self that causes fear and suffering and prevents you from connecting with your true self and living in the Now. - Eckhart Tolle, The Power of Now |
Edited by - positivevibes on 06/05/2008 23:28:57 |
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campbell28
80 Posts |
Posted - 06/06/2008 : 03:52:47
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positivevibes, have you read John Lee's Facing the Fire? I know q a few people on here have, but can't remember if you are one of them.
If you think it would really help you to FEEL the feelings, it's defeinitely a book worth reading. It took me a hwile to get down to actually feeling the true level of anger I had inside me (in fact am still in the process of it), and I don't even really have that much to be angry about (well not in comparison to many people here).
What I found v helpful was that he says that even if you can't actually feel the anger straight away, if you start doing things that physically express it, if you ACT like you're angry, it may start to come out. That has been very much my experience.
The way I found it was that, when the pain started to go, I felt sort of overwhelmed by general anxiety and - I think at that point - mainly sadness. So the fear came out first. I realised I was terrifed. And I did quite a bit of crying.
one day i was just sat on the landing crying, and I sort of knew I was angry as well but I couldn't feel it. and I thought I would like to tear a book up. So I went and got a book and ripped it up. and at the time it felt almost contrived, like a drama exercise, like watching someone in a film expressing anger. I was watching myself tear the book up and act like an angry person, but part of me was thinking 'this is really lame and stupid; how childish'.
but afterwards I did feel better. and from then I started to do more things like snapping pencils, tearing books, punching the bed etc, sort of coaxing the anger out, and it did start to come. Now, sometimes I feel the anger and know I have to go and start beating stuff up. But sometimes I still don't feel it, or I just feel a bit uptight and anxious and far away - like scottjmurray describes in his post on this thread - But I think: well, I haven't gone and hit anything for a while so perhaps I should.
and when I start doing it, the real feeling comes to the surface.
so I don't know if maybe thats something you could explore. its like you do have to work to get to the emotion - but not intellectually, not thinking about it. You just have to do it. and it can feel really silly and embarrassing at first but after a while that eases off! |
Edited by - campbell28 on 06/06/2008 03:55:20 |
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Dave
USA
1864 Posts |
Posted - 06/06/2008 : 08:29:02
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quote:
Originally posted by positivevibes
I was wondering how a person can know that they feel enraged about something, yet not actually feel the rage?
Keep in mind the rage that causes TMS symptoms is unconscious and cannot be felt.
quote:
...I can't seem to get myself to feel rageful or angry about the situation.
I believe this is common. We cannot force ourselves to feel something.
quote:
Maybe some part of my mind is protecting me from feeling the feeling because it's so strong?
I think this is the right track. Keep in mind the entire TMS process is designed to protect you from "dangerous" feelings.
Personally I have had limited success discovering repressed emotions. One time it happened, I got angry at a current situation and just allowed myself to get as angry as possible. I punched a pillow and screamed at the top of my lungs. Soon, that conscious anger faded (which is not the "real" rage but only a smokescreen for deeper emotions) and turned into profound sadness. Anger turned to tears and I felt the raw emotion pour out of me.
Not coincidentally, soon after this catharsis, my TMS pain vanished.
Unfortunately it did not happen very often for me, and I don't think it is something that can be forced. But clearly it revealed to me that there are deep repressed feelings of which I am unaware, and they are quite different from what I consciously believe them to be. |
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miehnesor
USA
430 Posts |
Posted - 06/06/2008 : 12:02:04
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The experience that Dave describes is similar to what I regularly experience in therapy. This seems to be the way our psyche's are constructed- that the rage is a gateway into even deeper feelings of sadness.
I've had good success on feeling repressed feelings with Inner Child work. It is a very slow but effective approach. Safety is key. I agree with Dave that you can not force yourself to feel repressed feelings. All you can do is bond with the inner child and support the child and accept the feelings of the child however tough and uncomfortable they may be.
Learn from the child. Hone in on who and what the child is angry about. This is a trial and error approach with different conversations, inner talk, with the child. See what provokes any feelings in the body. Pay attention to those feelings in the body. They may be an indication that things are being stirred up on the unconcsious level. Over time the child may come out of hiding once it is safe enough.
Validate the experience of the child and give the proper support. This will make it easier to provoke the repressed feelings of rage and sadness. Remember the feelings are repressed because it is too dangerous to come out with them. Your job is to convince the IC that it is different now and he will survive the experience of the feelings.
Finally if you feel like you need to rage do what Dave did, provided you have a safe place to do it, and rage as hard as you can. This is the ultimate act of acceptance for the feelings of the inner child.
Be patient and don't expect anything from the child at first. Stay the course and take the leap of faith that you have a wounded IC and that child desperately needs your help.
You can search for "inner child" on this site for more information. |
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scottjmurray
266 Posts |
Posted - 06/06/2008 : 14:49:21
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DAVE - i'm getting better and better at letting anger/rage and sadness pour out of me. it's becoming very natural now. all i have to is lock my door and pace around for a little while, then something pops into my head and i can take it all the way to the bottom. it isn't forced at all, in fact it feels like what i should be doing all the time if society was more accepting of emotions.
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i'm not s#!t.
i'm champagne. |
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armchairlinguist
USA
1397 Posts |
Posted - 06/07/2008 : 12:25:50
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quote:
But they come out in my dreams all the time -- constantly. Seems like part of my psyche is still "back there" and I need to get it "unstuck." My parents are in their late 80s. I want to figure this out before they die. I want to be able to forgive them because everyone says that forgiveness sets you free.
I think if you are still dreaming about these events yes, you still have emotions to feel about them. Keep in mind you don't have to forgive your parents before they die to set yourself free, and ultimately, forgiveness sets us free more than it does anyone else, as you say. You can take as long as you need to. You will always have the potential to forgive them even if they are gone.
I disagree with Dave that we can't feel repressed emotions. It is challenging to access them and it can't be forced, but it can happen. However, it's always worth repeating that feeling them is not a condition of TMS recovery, even if it is something you want to do. Sometimes feeling the feelings in dreams is the most we can do, and it is a form of being in touch with the feelings in the unconscious. Sometimes all we can do is acknowledge that we believe we are enraged at some level. All of these are helpful things to do, if different from feeling them directly.
Facing the Fire is a great book. I saw it recommended so many times on the forum before I actually got it, but it's been really helpful even for just expressing conscious anger, and it might resonate with you. I am not usually angry and the potentiality of my anger scares me. Lee describes a way to deal with anger (an emotion that feels unsafe to most of us) that keeps it safe for everyone, even you (though not necessarily fun to experience).
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It's not 100% belief that's required, but 100% commitment. |
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Dave
USA
1864 Posts |
Posted - 06/08/2008 : 09:30:46
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quote:
Originally posted by armchairlinguist
I disagree with Dave that we can't feel repressed emotions.
To be clear, this is not what I meant when I said the "unconscious rage" cannot be felt.
Dr. Sarno refers to a pool of "rage" that exists in our unconscious, and TMS is the mind's attempt to distract us when the rage threatens to overflow the pool.
By definition this rage is unconscious and cannot be felt. It can be viewed as the child inside us that is experiencing this rage, but the child cannot get out, and we cannot access his feelings.
This unconscious rage is not the same as repressed emotion, though the latter is an ingredient of this rage.
This is all metaphorical, of course, but the goal is to make a clear distinction between conscious emotions we can feel, and the inner rage that the mind is protecting us from, that can never be felt. |
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armchairlinguist
USA
1397 Posts |
Posted - 06/09/2008 : 16:41:14
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It seems we disagree quite substantially. Sarno does not say that the unconscious rage cannot be felt -- just that it usually cannot be by most people, and that attempts to feel it are not normally effective ways of recovering from TMS. He uses Helen as an example of a case where it was possible and effected her cure.
The whole idea of TMS as distraction is that the repressed rage strives to rise to consciousness and the pain is a distraction from it. If he thought it could never reach consciousness and be felt, the distraction theory would not be necessary, so Sarno would not have formulated it.
Also, Sarno is not a psychological professional and I don't think he entirely understands the psychodynamics of repressed emotions. I don't think anyone really does, but some therapists and methods believe it is possible to feel many types of repressed emotions.
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It's not 100% belief that's required, but 100% commitment. |
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Knowing you're enraged but not feeling the rage?
