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music321
USA
8 Posts |
 Posted - 08/13/2015 : 19:02:33
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Hi, this is my first post. I am suffering from TMS, and have read Sarno. In early 2008, I became progressively weaker until by August 2008, I was almost entirely bedridden. I remained in this state for 3.5 yrs. I started to improve when my very low vitamin D levels were brought up. So, I started to recover in early 2011. At the time I had not even heard of TMS.
Since early 2011, I have been getting stronger, only to suffer a setback that will leave me in greater pain and with greater disability for months before starting on the road to recovery. At first, I accepted this as normal. After all, I had done basically nothing for 3.5 yrs, and assumed that all of my connective tissue was atrophied, as were my muscles.
Today, I am worlds better than I was in 2011. Prior to early 2011 I spent nearly ALL my time lying down. Today, I am still very much disabled/out of shape. I can comfortably lift about 20 lbs, and (until about a month ago) walk about 3/4 of a mile at absolute most. At the beginning of the year, I could only walk 1/3 of a mile.
I am able to gain muscle strength without too much trouble. My problem is that I am, on a regular basis and for years, injuring my tendons/ligaments. After years of diligent exercise, even if just swimming a few laps or lifting a few pounds, I would think that my tendons/ligaments would be stronger. I wonder if I am "really" re-injuring myself, or if this is TMS. The kinds of activities that injure me are activities that are very easy by normal standards, but strenuous and out of practice by me. For instance, I've lost judgement during sexual activity to the point of injuring myself.
Currently, I have walked very little since exactly one month ago today. I was kneeling on a hard surface doing some work. It wasn't continuous. If I had to guess, and it's just a guess, I'd say that I was kneeling for about an hour. My knees hurt at the time, but not that much, so I didn't think much of it. The next day, they hurt as well. I continued about my daily activities until driving and repeatedly climbing stairs became too painful. In addition to pain, I have inflammation. My patella pops out of place, almost with every step, and this is one of the major factors involved with continued inflammation.
What's strange about these "terrible" knee injuries is that I didn't have ANY bruising on my skin. So, I think that either my knee ligaments are in a state of degeneration and were very easily damaged, or I have inflammation as a component of TMS. Any thoughts? Thanks. |
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altherunner
Canada
511 Posts |
Posted - 08/13/2015 : 20:58:19
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| Hi - I had a lot of leg pain I blamed on running that was tms. I also have scoliosis, my spine looks funny on an x ray, like it should hurt, but it doesn't anymore. If it was me and my symptoms, I would continue walking and maybe add strength training gradually. |
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music321
USA
8 Posts |
Posted - 08/13/2015 : 23:44:40
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| Thanks for the reply. Did you have inflammation, or just pain? |
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summabody
Canada
27 Posts |
Posted - 08/14/2015 : 18:08:02
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I'm kinda in the same boat as you music321 - my TMS kept me in a wheelchair for 14 years - I have joint contractures that have developed over this time so physically standing up is only possible with 2.5 inch wedge heels, I have very limited range of motion and can only walk a few steps up to about 20 minutes before crippling nerve pain sets in that often feels like muscle tears, strains, injury...over and over again.
This sets off spasms and cramps that can last for weeks. It's a real struggle because I always go back to the Web and find articles about scar tissue, degeneration, nerve damage, compartment syndrome (which I was originally diagnosed with in 2000 and couldn't do the required test because by that time 3 months later i was completely unable to stand up). So I go back and forth on believing 100% this is TMS.
Though I was only bedridden once for about 4 months in my worst flare, I have only used a wheelchair and could literally not even stand until about a year ago I began to learn to walk in heels, but have been plagued by the excruciating pain that inevitably comes either continually or with a few days of break.
After a year of training and building strength through all this, I keep feeling like I'm thrown back to square one. I can't go 2 weeks without "reinjuring" myself with what feels exactly like muscle strain, along with spasms that can't be stretched through. My longest break has been 12 days, with discomfort but not extreme pain. When it comes back hard it's really hard not to believe I've strained a muscle due to my atrophy (extreme atrophy), muscle and tendon shortening, loss of endurance, etc. because it's so sharp in onset and so disabling.
Each time I'm convinced it's a real strain, then later wonder if I'd really injured myself or if this is TMS every time mimicking my original calf strain injury sustained in 2000, for which the pain never left and only intensified (pretty much what R.S.D reflex sympathetic dystrophy does).
Like you I have a popping feeling in my left knee when I bend and my right ankle seems very loose with popping/cracking ligaments when I walk.
With the nerve pain, it's impossible to gauge when my muscle is "actually" tired. I imagine you can relate to this.
The toughest part is to reason with myself and break the tentative approach I have to walking and standing up. I'm always monitoring how my legs feel because they ARE so deconditioned and could be prone to injury if I'm not careful. This makes the knowledge cure so much harder - it's nearly impossible to ignore the physical when you're literally recovering from prolonged disuse.
And yet, with all my atrophy and contracture today, the pain is exactly the same as in 2000 when this all first happened and I had large calf muscles, full range of motion etc. so I have to at least believe that this is not due entirely, maybe not at all, to deconditioning.
I have to say I'm becoming more and more convinced this is TMS through and through. I'm re-reading Steve O's The great pain deception and Fred Amir's Rapid Recovery From Back Pain and their stories really illustrate how intense and convincing symptoms can be - and how deceiving, with the entire medical community WRONG about their pain's cause and treatment. They both recovered from unimaginable stuff through TMS work, which encourages me that I can move beyond coping/pain management to full recovery. I've managed to do this with an RSI in my arms and shoulder "bursitis"* that turned me into a quadriplegic for a while! It's tougher to overcome the leg stuff because I am FEARFUL of what I can and can't handle, and that's what long periods of immobility will do to the mind. You and I may take a bit longer to deprogram due to this, but I believe it can be done.
* I did this without uncovering any underlying psychological process, that was truly a knowledge cure/relief of anxiety than anything was structurally wrong and go about my business kinda situation. For my legs I've been voraciously trying to journal etc. but now shifting focus to just accepting fully that there IS NO degeneration, despite the atrophy, etc. and fully embracing that TMS is my situation. Even Sarno says it's not necessary to find out what's in the subconscious, more important is to break the fear/conditioning and acknowledge that the brain is doing this because of repressed emotions (acceptance).
In your case, the knee popping and inflammation can also be TMS - yes. Muscle bracing/guarding could be causing the knee instability, and the brain can induce inflammation as well. The brain can also amplify pain signals in an area there's a bit of weakness/damage, there can also be NO pain in an area that is truly degenerated, especially if you're fearful of aggravating that area (power of suggestion). MRI 100 people off the street in no pain and guaranteed a large chunk of them will show slipped discs, etc. that are not causing any pain whatsoever, pain is rarely a good indication of damage or degeneration.
Even autoimmune diseases where joints swell up and get hot etc are highly suspected to be driven by emotional factors. The brain/body can produce any kind of symptom it wants.
A final thought, it's likely your (and my) ligaments and tendons have NOT degenerated from disuse. They're not like muscles that add and drop sarcomeres to accommodate activity and change length. Perhaps they've lost strength, but this is more about the nervous system than the tissue. The bigger problem is when nervous system has "forgotten" the nerve pathways (think of when you stop practicing piano or similar for a while and your skill becomes rusty fairly quickly, and you get very bad after a year, etc). This needs to be retrained perhaps even longer than it takes to control and eliminate the pain. The nervous system needs to re-educate itself how to move without bracing, spazzing, holding on tight etc. and this will take time, and if the ligaments/tendons need time to adapt they'll do so as you continue to recover strength. There have been lots of studies that show strength is controlled more by the nervous system's ability to recruit muscle fibers than their size or number, for example.
Anyway hope that encourages you, give Steve O's and Fred Amir's books a read as well. They were both EXTREME. Makes me feel like if they can do it I can too and that's what we need to fully assure ourselves.
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altherunner
Canada
511 Posts |
Posted - 08/14/2015 : 21:27:11
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| I had some swelling and inflammation |
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music321
USA
8 Posts |
Posted - 08/15/2015 : 00:37:27
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| Thanks for the responses. I have a better understanding of the direction in which I have to take my life to get beyond this. |
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marytabby
USA
545 Posts |
Posted - 02/04/2016 : 08:02:59
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I would like to ask for further support for me and Music321 from specifically KNEE TMS successes. Like Music321, for 9 months now, my knee keeps catching or sliding in and out of it's normal socket or whatever and I have had swelling at the knee for as long. MRI Shows cartilage wearing but I am still pushing forward in a TMS approach. I also can't fully rotate my right knee out, it feels stuck is all I can describe it as. Can KNEE TMS success people please offer help and support for both Music321 and me? Not just for pain for this bizarre clicking and scraping. I am working with Fred Amir and I would really appreciate knee people adding info. Thanks.
Mary in Boston |
Edited by - marytabby on 02/04/2016 08:04:01 |
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tennis tom
USA
4746 Posts |
Posted - 02/05/2016 : 11:13:29
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Sorry, I'm not a kneedy just a hippy, but it don't seem like there's much action here anymore, so I'll hobble in with my 2-cents worth. Weren't you seeing Dr. Gwotz at sometime? It may be good to get a second opinion from him whether it's TMS or "structural."
==================================================
TAKE THE HOLMES-RAHE STRESS TEST
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holmes_and_Rahe_stress_scale
Some of my favorite excerpts from _THE DIVIDED MIND_ :
http://www.tmshelp.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=2605
==================================================
"It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society." Jiddu Krishnamurti
"Pain is inevitable; suffering is optional." Author Unknown
“You can discover more about a person in an hour of play than in a year of conversation” – Plato
"Happy People Are Happy Putters." Frank Nobilo, Golf Analyst
"Be careful about reading health books. You may die of a misprint." Mark Twain and Balto
"The hot-dog is the noblest of dogs; it feeds the hand that bites it." Dr. Laurence Johnston Peter
"...the human emotional system was not designed to endure the mental rigors of a tennis match." Dr. Allen Fox
"Where ignorance is bliss, 'tis folly to be wise" - Thomas Gray
"All my friends in Los Angeles are the sensitive type. They all have like all the diseases like Chronic Fatigue, Epstien Barr, Fibromyalgia. Like all the diseases where the only symptoms seem to be you had a really crappy childhood and at the prospect of full time work ya feel kinda achy and tired."
Posted by Skizzik @ TMSHelp from comedian Maria Bamford
"Success consists of going from failure to failure without loss of enthuisam."
Sir Winston Churchill
======================================================
"If it ends with "itis" or "algia" or "syndrome" and doctors can't figure out what causes it, then it might be TMS." Dave the Mod
=================================================
TMS PRACTITIONERS:
John Sarno, MD
400 E 34th St, New York, NY 10016
(212) 263-6035
Dr. Sarno is now retired, if you call this number you will be referred to his associate Dr. Rashbaum.
"...there are so many things little and big that are tms, I wouldn't have time to write about all of them": Told to icelikeaninja by Dr. Sarno
Here's the TMS practitioners list from the TMS Help Forum:
http://www.tmshelp.com/links.htm
Here's a list of TMS practitioners from the TMS Wiki:
http://tmswiki.org/ppd/Find_a_TMS_Doctor_or_Therapist
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Om Sharma
India
17 Posts |
Posted - 02/13/2016 : 20:36:13
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quote:
Originally posted by marytabby
I would like to ask for further support for me and Music321 from specifically KNEE TMS successes. Like Music321, for 9 months now, my knee keeps catching or sliding in and out of it's normal socket or whatever and I have had swelling at the knee for as long. MRI Shows cartilage wearing but I am still pushing forward in a TMS approach. I also can't fully rotate my right knee out, it feels stuck is all I can describe it as. Can KNEE TMS success people please offer help and support for both Music321 and me? Not just for pain for this bizarre clicking and scraping. I am working with Fred Amir and I would really appreciate knee people adding info. Thanks.
Mary in Boston
Though I am not a doctor but the homeopathy medicine 'Ruta 30' can improve you great, for detail information you can Visit this site -
http://www.homeoint.org/clarke/r/ruta.htm |
Edited by - Om Sharma on 02/13/2016 20:37:29 |
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garystil
Australia
42 Posts |
Posted - 02/14/2016 : 22:44:29
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| Om Sharma, why not express your views on a homeopathy forum? |
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marytabby
USA
545 Posts |
Posted - 02/25/2016 : 09:20:22
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Tennis Tom:
I had a Skype session with Dr. Sopher and he really didn't give me much reassurance. Just kept saying "It's TMS". It wasn't a convincing chat. Not sure who Dr. Gwotz is.
Weren't you seeing Dr. Gwotz at sometime? It may be good to get a second opinion from him whether it's TMS or "structural."
==================================================
TAKE THE HOLMES-RAHE STRESS TEST
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holmes_and_Rahe_stress_scale
Some of my favorite excerpts from _THE DIVIDED MIND_ :
http://www.tmshelp.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=2605
==================================================
"It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society." Jiddu Krishnamurti
"Pain is inevitable; suffering is optional." Author Unknown
“You can discover more about a person in an hour of play than in a year of conversation” – Plato
"Happy People Are Happy Putters." Frank Nobilo, Golf Analyst
"Be careful about reading health books. You may die of a misprint." Mark Twain and Balto
"The hot-dog is the noblest of dogs; it feeds the hand that bites it." Dr. Laurence Johnston Peter
"...the human emotional system was not designed to endure the mental rigors of a tennis match." Dr. Allen Fox
"Where ignorance is bliss, 'tis folly to be wise" - Thomas Gray
"All my friends in Los Angeles are the sensitive type. They all have like all the diseases like Chronic Fatigue, Epstien Barr, Fibromyalgia. Like all the diseases where the only symptoms seem to be you had a really crappy childhood and at the prospect of full time work ya feel kinda achy and tired."
Posted by Skizzik @ TMSHelp from comedian Maria Bamford
"Success consists of going from failure to failure without loss of enthuisam."
Sir Winston Churchill
======================================================
"If it ends with "itis" or "algia" or "syndrome" and doctors can't figure out what causes it, then it might be TMS." Dave the Mod
=================================================
TMS PRACTITIONERS:
John Sarno, MD
400 E 34th St, New York, NY 10016
(212) 263-6035
Dr. Sarno is now retired, if you call this number you will be referred to his associate Dr. Rashbaum.
"...there are so many things little and big that are tms, I wouldn't have time to write about all of them": Told to icelikeaninja by Dr. Sarno
Here's the TMS practitioners list from the TMS Help Forum:
http://www.tmshelp.com/links.htm
Here's a list of TMS practitioners from the TMS Wiki:
http://tmswiki.org/ppd/Find_a_TMS_Doctor_or_Therapist
[/quote] |
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tennis tom
USA
4746 Posts |
Posted - 02/25/2016 : 10:13:40
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quote:
Originally posted by marytabby
Tennis Tom:
I had a Skype session with Dr. Sopher and he really didn't give me much reassurance. Just kept saying "It's TMS". It wasn't a convincing chat. Not sure who Dr. Gwotz is.
Weren't you seeing Dr. Gwotz at sometime? It may be good to get a second opinion from him whether it's TMS or "structural."
Here's info on Dr. Gwotz that is right from this site's "LINKS" button above right on this page. http://www.gwozdzmd.com/
No I've never seen him since I'm on the left-coast, but if he were near me I would see him in a dead second. He comes very highly recommended by SteveO and many others who've seen him.
MT, I don't understand why you don't believe Dr. Sopher when he tells you you have TMS. I would die for that DX and run out of his office. He wrote a great TMS book and was a close collaborator with Dr. Sarno himself. When someone of his stature in the TMS world tells you it's TMS why don't you believe it? That's what I'm not getting. Could you please elaborate on your Skype session with him and what he based his TMS DX on? How long was your skype session? What did he ask you?
******************************************************************
http://www.gwozdzmd.com/
"Thank you for your interest in my practice. I have been here in Somerset, NJ since early 2001. It is a small office that specializes in Family Practice seeing both adults and children. Since it is small, we are able to serve our patients in a very personal manner, honoring each patient's individual needs.
Before becoming a doctor, I worked 17 years as an engineer and engineering manager at AT&T Bell Labs. I have BS and MS degrees in electrical engineering from Duke University and an MS degree in computer science from NJ Institute of Technology.
On my 40th birthday, I started medical school at UMDNJ Robert Wood Johnson. I then completed my residency in Family Practice at Robert Wood Johnson University Hospital and St. Peter's University Hospital in New Brunswick, NJ. After a 6 month stint in North Brunswick helping out a doctor who had been hospitalized, I opened my office as a solo practice doctor so that I could serve my patients in the best way I know how. From the first telephone call to our office, you should notice a difference in the way you are treated.
Please check out our site for details of our services, the insurances that we accept, as well as health information that I would like to highlight through this site. Thank you again for visiting us and I hope to see you soon in our office in Somerset, NJ.
SPECIAL ANNOUNCEMENT:
Dr. Gwozdz is pleased to help announce the new film project documenting the work of Dr. John Sarno, MD. If you would like to know more about this project or how you can help fund this project, please click the play button below to see a preview of this documentary titled ALL THE RAGE and please CLICK HERE to learn more about how you can help."
http://www.gwozdzmd.com/
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Edited by - tennis tom on 02/25/2016 10:15:22 |
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marytabby
USA
545 Posts |
Posted - 02/29/2016 : 11:16:51
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Tennis Tom,
The Skype was 30 minutes. I sent him a questionnaire in advance about my family history (dysfunctional/traumatic abuse). I think what made it hard to trust is he did not see me in person. I think the Skype made it less real for me, as opposed to an in person appt. with him seeing the swelling and hearing all the scraping, etc and him saying "yes, this is definitely TMS and here is why." For the past 9 months, despite all my efforts to try to work the TMS approach it's not getting any better. I feel stuck and the knee feels stuck. I have no idea what the emotional cause is. I rack my brain with ideas and journal about possible causes but still 9 months later it's there. I had a huge epiphany 10 years ago when my local doctor, Dr. Martinez outright said my back issue was TMS during an in person examination. Even Martinez now doesn't know if this is TMS or not, he can go either way with it. Sopher's style was that he didn't give me any explanation, just said "It's TMS". You may say that is all you need, but I like an explanation: "Mary, the reason your knee keeps scraping and the reason the knee is swollen is blah blah blah (from TMS)". No explanations were given, it was not definitive for me. When I said "what about the swelling?" the reply was just "It's TMS". I'm one of those people who need things explained. I guess I didn't feel I got that. I spoke to Dr. Gwozd last week and he said "I cannot diagnose you as TMS without laying my hands on you in an exam, it's against the law." Sopher did it via Skype. That's the difference. So I live in Boston and if I want to see Dr. Gwozd I have to go to Jersey and he doesn't take HMO plans so it's $500. |
Edited by - marytabby on 02/29/2016 11:31:49 |
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tennis tom
USA
4746 Posts |
Posted - 03/01/2016 : 09:56:50
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Thanks for the thorough explanation MT of why you're not convinced it's TMS. Dr. Sopher was a close associate of Dr. Sarno's and he was the same way. He would give his repeat patients DX's over the phone and was declarative that it was TMS. I think if your're a very experienced TMS doctor and have seen hundreds maybe thousands of patients with the same scenario, and never an exception to the evidence, they become very confident in their DX that it's TMS. If there's no structural evidence to the contrary, what else could it be?
Since you were a patient of Dr.Sopher's and you need more convincing, maybe you could call him up and say so. He may not charge you again. Ask him if it's TMS why hasn't the symptom gone away? What he feels you should do to make it go away?
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Edited by - tennis tom on 03/01/2016 09:58:21 |
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marytabby
USA
545 Posts |
Posted - 03/01/2016 : 11:19:17
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Sopher no longer practices medicine so technically I wasn't his patient. I was a Skype consult. Part of me feels I should call and on the emails I sent to follow up after with clarification questions he kept replying: "you must stop questioning".
He seems to miss my point every time. |
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tennis tom
USA
4746 Posts |
Posted - 03/01/2016 : 14:44:50
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Thanks again for the reply MT, I'll give it some more thought. In the meantime here's a good post by Forest the founder of the TMS Wiki that may be helpful to you:
Branson said: #8593;
"I particularly like this quote from the author
"I had to stop living my whole life trying to feel better and just shift back to normal living."
The new accepted American Medical Association advice to patients whose back goes out is simply to "go back to life." The worry about symptoms perpetuate the sensations. Locks it in. And before long with TMS the worry am I looking at my subconsious right? Maybe if I had a new affirmation. Am I doing it right?
Dump it all on the floor and walk away in the other direction. To life. Even if it sucks....for now."(includes slight edits for clarity by Forest)
Forest:
"That's a great point, Branson, thanks for sharing it. Our TMS wants to be the biggest thing in our life and the way we overcome it is by re-immersing ourselves in life and finding joy in that life.
The quote reminds me of the closing epigraph in the Great Pain Deception: "Happiness first, and good health will certainly follow...."
On a similar note, neither Steve Ozanich nor I actually journaled as part of our recovery, and while other people have done a lot of journaling, sometimes I think we emphasize it too much here. The journaling in the SEP is meant to provide a foundation for understanding how we feel, but I've come to think that on a day to day basis, resuming healthy lives and changing how we think about ourselves and our lives is often just as important or more important. One can certainly reach a point of diminishing returns with journaling.
I've come to believe that TMS is often a message that we need to change the way that we are living our lives, and often it is a very personal and life changing journey to figure out exactly what we need to do. I wish that there was an easy way to encapsulate this, but "stopping living my whole life trying to feel better and just shift back to [joyful, effortless] normal living" seems like a good start.
I think it is important to look at the success stories subforum to see what techniques are actually successful. I'd have to look at it more carefully, but I'd bet that resumption of relaxed and happy normal living is a common theme. We tend to think that once we are out of pain we can be happy and relaxed, but perhaps it is just the opposite. Dr. Hanscom says as much in his chapter on "Reversing the Chronic Pain Process:"
David Hanscom MD. Back in Control (p. 47) said:
In answering the three questions, keep in mind that it’s common in our culture to feel that if you had more of “X,” then you would be happier. “X” can include more money, better-behaved children, a nicer boss, etc. It can also include “less pain.” I don’t disagree that good circumstances are better than bad circumstances. However, many if not most circumstances are beyond our control. In Eastern cultures, it’s often the other way around. If you can first attain a peace of mind regardless of your circumstances, then you will have the energy to create the life that you want. Part of this is coming up with a vision that doesn’t require outside changes and steadily working toward attaining it." |
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marytabby
USA
545 Posts |
Posted - 03/01/2016 : 14:58:39
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Thanks, TT
I do think agree it's good to do more thinking in these terms. Like at times instead of worrying "is this TMS or not", just get on with life. I have had this 9 month episode too long. It's like s*%t or get off the pot sometimes.
Mary |
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"degeneration" of tendons/ligaments?
